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paislygoddess
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Post rolling R
on: January 13, 2004 04:45
How can I help my daughter roll her R,s with out sounding like she is drownding face first in water. I really can not take laughing so hard. I have thr R's and the ch but when she tries... I just die.
Naneth
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 13, 2004 06:32
I think listening to this sound clip from the movie is a good way to hear and then try to imitate the Sindarin R ......

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm#dartho
Thuriniel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 14, 2004 12:26
In the cast commentary for TTT, Craig Parker said that at the beginning they intended for the Elves to have an "accent" when they spoke English.

They tried it, but everyone sounded really weird rolling their "r's" while speaking English, so they decided not to go on with the idea. Craig said a few words with an "accent" ... it was quite amusing !

Maria
Laurel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 03:13
When taking Spanish, I was told to say the phrase "pot of tea" as the British would say it (very properly). Repeat the phrase faster and faster...this will "train" your tongue where it needs to be for a rolling R. Hope that helps.

~Laurel~
GlandorSaradan
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 05:22
Yes, Laurel was right- Practice makes perfect.
Recently I'm learning this with my sister, (and we often discuss it in front of my Dad, who is looking interesting and sometimes find it quite funny about how hard we've tried to pronounce it correctly), and I am (and my sister too) just having the similar problem with that of paislygoddess' daughter, when I was trying to pronounce a word with the rolling "R" sound, I just kept adding some "extra" sound before pronouncing the rolling r sound successfully, for example, you'll hear "Khe"rrrrrazy instead of "Crrrrrrazy", LOL. The only good news is that I can produce the rolling R sound more easily now when pronouncing it (but not pronouncing a word).
Anyway... I MUST get it right someday in the future (not in the past, lol), coz I'm learning Sindarin, and I CAN'T speak the language well if I can't get the rolling R sound right, or there'll be (many?) problem occurs when pronouncing some words.:cry:
So just keep your daughter practicing this, paislygoddess, I think you'd better see your daughter's failing in pronouncing the rolling R as part of the "lovely (in fact I mean "funny") learning time" (and laugh together, then you both may have a good time then, instead of "you've done it wrongly again, so now try it again!"), LOL.
paislygoddess
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 07:26
you'll hear "Khe"rrrrrazy instead of "Crrrrrrazy", LOL.


That is what my daughter does, a cross between rollong R's and the Ch sound from Bach. I have to beg her to stop becouse she will do it untill I am rolling on the floor.
Ercae
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 07:38
Hähä, how strange. Never knew that it's actually difficult for Englishmen (or Americans?) to say R. :_D I mean, it's not a problem for me to say the English R (hm. maybe because we only have American productions on TV here? :_D)
minuial_gil_estel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 08:22
I have to say that thr "r's" are probably the hardest part to me. I am worried that i won't be able to get them to sound right. To me, if they don't sound right it can take away from the whole effect of the language sounding natural and graceful. Very hard!

I tried the spot of tea thing.. but I don't know if maybe I'm just not saying it right, but it doesn't seem to help Myabe if I keep trying for a few days?

Anyone else have any good advice? Maybe someone on here speaks a lanuage that uses them?

Le Hennon
minuial_gil_estel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 08:26
Ok, so i just figured out what my problem is, but still don't know how to solve it.

My tongue feels like it is all weighted to the back of my throat. I can feel myself achieving more of a "ch" sound. I am not sure how to more the sound up to the front of my mouth so that it produces a rolling R. I feel like my tongue gets stuck at the back of my throat. I don't know if that will help anyone give us some advice.
GlandorSaradan
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 03:49
Wow, paislygoddess I just can't imagine why you'll be made laughing so easily, LOL. I think you'll never wish to hear those who even CAN'T pronounce the rolling R sound... (I can't tell you here or I'll be killed, lol.)
Well, I don't know why it's difficult for your daughter to pronounce that R, but what I know is my mother tongue doesn't have this sound, and even other awkward-soundings... haha.
Minuial, for pronouncing the rolling R, hm, it's really difficult to tell how to make it, but when you put your tongue at a right position, you'll feel the tip of your tongue (without "moving" your tongue) vibrating when trying to say "Arrrrrrrrr"... (May be it will be easier for you to try to say "Hrrrrr" without voicing at first...)
Well, that's only my experience (for little success at first), and now I'm still working on the "Grrrrrrreat" and "Grrrrrrrace" and "Crrrrrrrazy" and "Trrrrrrrain"...

[Edited on 16/1/2004 by GlandorSaradan]
Fíriel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 08:42
How can I help my daughter roll her R,s with out sounding like she is drownding face first in water. I really can not take laughing so hard. I have thr R's and the ch but when she tries... I just die.


Hmm. It's a good idea to not hear _me_ pronounce those rolling Rs, otherwise I'll be guilty of sending you on your way to the afterlife. The trouble is, my accent (I can't help where I live!) usually doesn't even accommodate a normal R, let alone a rolling R ("It's not fah; I parked my cah near the bah!"), so I suspect I'll be repeating Laurel's 'pot of tea' in my sleep.
minuial_gil_estel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 15, 2004 08:47
Le hannon Glandorsaradan! I will try just getting the feeling of the tongue in the right spot in the front of my mouth... maybe get a good roll before I try to include it into a word.

Paislygoddess does any of this help your daughter? It is so hard isn't it? most people would probably fall over laughing if they heard me trying the r's!
Mornië
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 17, 2004 01:23
Hähä, how strange. Never knew that it's actually difficult for Englishmen (or Americans?) to say R. :_D I mean, it's not a problem for me to say the English R (hm. maybe because we only have American productions on TV here? :_D)


Same here, I'm Finnish and the Finnish R is naturally rolled, so it's no problem for me. Come to think of it, pronouncing Elvish is just like pronouncing Finnish! Except for the "dh" sound, like in Caradhras.
GlandorSaradan
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 17, 2004 10:53
Wow it sounds really easy for you to pronounce the rolling R Mornië (well I just wish I can get it so easy like you :drool: ). It's not surprise for me to hear that, just think like this: you've learn it since you're young, and you've been speaking it for years until now, of course it's an easy task for you to pronounce it; however, when you've already used to it, and try to learn another language which is completely different from your mother language, you'll find a lot difficulties. For example, many of you who are used to speak English or Spanish, it's difficult to speak Cantonese, in which none of the words have those natural "r" in "rat", rolling "r" in "aer"(Sindarin) and some other awkward-soundings like the "ch"s with "ur" in "church", or "th" with "ing" in "thing", etc.; instead you've to pronounce several "ng", "og", "ou", "an" or other sounds (which I don't know how to explain to you here) in a single syllable (as you may call it), like "ngo"(我; meaning "me" in English) and "wag"(或; meaning "or" in English), and with different tones of the same pronunciation of a word comes to different meaning- they're totally different words in fact.
==============
Back to the problem of pronouncing the rolling r, I wonder if it helps to try the "Grrr"s, "Trrrrr"s, "Prrrrrr"s first.
In fact I think I'm going to get 100% success for "train" and "great", but 0% for the word "prayer"- Oh help! I think I'm saying "pakhe-rrrr-er" instead of "prayer", LOL. (Funny it is, but I also felt a bit frustrating for the failing of pronouncing the right one. )
Narniel
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Post RE: rolling R
on: January 23, 2004 12:21
Suilad!
I might add my offer of advice:
I couldn't pronounce thrilled r properly, but asked a friend, who studied music. He told me, that it's worth practising "te-de-ffen" first slowly and getting faster until you reach the sound of "treffen" (well, this is a German word meaning 'to meet'; if you pronounce it like a Sindarin word, you get the right sound). It helped me so that today even especially difficult combinations like 'r' after a vocal is manageable.
And at last: don't stop practicing, it might take a while to get used to it

Navaer. Narniel
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 05, 2004 03:12
When I'm teaching Americans to pronounce Sindarin, 'r' and 'ch' aren't my main problems; getting them to pronounce the S. vowel 'y' is!
Laitaine_Hinnim
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 05, 2004 06:37
I live in New England. We don't pronounce "r"s at all! lol.

I guess really there are two ways to roll "r"s, either with the tip of the tongue or with the back, the latter being much more like what the French do. The first way, I'm told, is easier to learn. But here I'm just rrrrrrambling.
Dodo
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 05, 2004 06:50
One thing that helped me was pronounce Brot (german- means bread) like B-dot and reapeat it it over and over again.
It's kinda like te-de-ffen thing.
The problem is..I know how it works but it always sounds like I try to hard and everytime I pronounce it I have to concentrate really hard on it.
This way I'll never be able to speak any language with trilled 'r's fluently. *frustrated*
Malinornë
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 05, 2004 10:02
Just a tiny word of warning regarding the German examples "treffen" and "Brot"... IMHO the "r" sound used in German is not trilled, but the quite different sound described by Laitaine as "with the back of the tounge" (or French style r).
This is the same kind of "r" I have in my Swedish dialect and I had a really hard time learning the trilled "r", too. I learnt it for Russian some years ago and was very happy to find use for it in Sindarin, rather than having to learn yet another way of pronouncing "r"! Glandor, I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to speak Cantonese :dizzy:
Dodo
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 06, 2004 12:47
^^I know that the German 'r' is usually different from the trilled 'r' but these examples help tp learn the trilled. Try it!
It's because of the 'te-de' 'b-de' thing. The tongue doesn't go to the back of your mouth, it stays in the front.
So it's actually impossible to learn the german way of pronouncing the 'r' are using those examples.
Malinornë
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 06, 2004 02:19
Dodo, I don't doubt it, it just thought it worth mentioning in case some Sindarin students are familiar with the German pronunciation of "r". But perhaps I only caused more confusion...
Falagar
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 06, 2004 05:06
One could listen to the Norwegian prime minister speaking English.
Dodo
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 06, 2004 11:08
Dodo, I don't doubt it, it just thought it worth mentioning in case some Sindarin students are familiar with the German pronunciation of "r". But perhaps I only caused more confusion...


Oh okay. I'm sorry then- little misunderstanding here. *hides*
Malinornë
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 06, 2004 09:05
No reason to be sorry, or hide! Seems we both misunderstood each other
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 07, 2004 05:54
I guess really there are two ways to roll "r"s, either with the tip of the tongue or with the back, the latter being much more like what the French do.


I would avoid the French uvular R if at all possible. Tolkien really didn't like the sound (in fact I believe he suggested that the orcs may have pronounced r that way)
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 07, 2004 08:50
I would avoid the French uvular R if at all possible. Tolkien really didn't like the sound (in fact I believe he suggested that the orcs may have pronounced r that way)


Yep. App. E: "The Orcs, and some Dwarves, are said to have used a back or uvular r, a sound which the Eldar found distasteful."
Falagar
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Post RE: rolling R
on: February 07, 2004 09:06
I would avoid the French uvular R if at all possible. Tolkien really didn't like the sound (in fact I believe he suggested that the orcs may have pronounced r that way)

Tolkien disliked much of the French culture and language (but loved the wine) if I'm not much mistaken.
Aeluin
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Post RE: rolling R
on: August 27, 2004 11:42
Oh dear. Trilled R's are not something I'm able to do (much), which is a problem as I'm trying to learn Finnish and Russian which rrrrreally rrrrreally trrrrrill =\ I'm actually starting to feel very frustrated and hopeless about the whole trilling thing. Then again, other sounds some people find difficult (german R, 'ch' like in ach laut) come naturally.

I've never really been able to do the "brrrrr it's cold" thing or "purring" like a cat, but have discovered that I'm able to say "Ruuskanen" if I mentally add a silent H before the R. But I still cannot sustain a trill. And when I try to practice by putting the tip of my tongue on that 'plane' behind my front teeth, and then exhaling/blowing (whatever you call it =P) I just end up hissing and whistling like some weird animal =\

*sigh* Sometimes I wish I was born Finnish, as it would be helpful to have these strange and beautiful sounds come so naturally.

Any help from Finns or Russians (even Czechs and other trillers :love: ) would be so greatly appreciated as I'm quite stuck in a rut.

[Edited on 28/8/2004 by Aeluin]

[Edited on 28/8/2004 by Aeluin]
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: rolling R
on: August 29, 2004 06:22
Just a little hint for Americans trying to pronounce a medial trilled r: We have that sound! Think of the 'dd' in 'Eddie or the 'tt' in 'letter' spoken with American, not Brit, pronunciation. If you're American , pronounce the S erin as if it were an E word spelt 'eddin', you'll say it right.
Celebrian_Kementari
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 01, 2004 05:57
Spanish is my second language and I know it fairly well. I thought I could just borrow its "r" but my friend says it sounds like a "d" as in, "Namádië" instead of "Namárië." I think there's a difference...?

Something that helps a lot is "Navaer." If you use an English r, you say "Navye-er" (rhyming with "fire") because you just can't pronounce a diphthong before our r. (Try saying "fire" or "our" on one syllable. Then try it with rolling r's. If you can fit it in one syllable, and still have an r on the end, you're probably saying it right.)

On the BBC LOTR radio show, all the Elves, and some other people, rolled their r's. It was really funny. The Mouth of Sauron said, "Is there anyone in all this rrrabble with the authorrrity to trrreat with me?"

Sorry for the rrrrambling...
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 01, 2004 09:36

Something that helps a lot is "Navaer." If you use an English r, you say "Navye-er" (rhyming with "fire")


But even if you use an English 'r' it wouldn't rhyme with 'fire' because S 'ae' doesn't have the same sound as the 'i' in E 'fire'.
Naneth
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 02, 2004 05:06
Celebrian_Kementari, is there any way to hear that LOTR radio show online ??


Celebrian_Kementari
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 05, 2004 07:10
If anyone can explain how to pronounce the "ae," (for an English speaker) I'd like to hear it. Tolkien doesn't explain it at all; I guess he thinks its hopeless. I tend to make it a little longer than the English long i, and try to go straight from "a" to "e" but it's practically impossible.

I haven't seen the radio version online. My friend got it from the library. It's great, though--with a full cast, some of whom are actors I've heard of elsewhere! The music is good too, although not as good as the movie's. About the r's, I think British people have an easier time than Americans. Some old-fashioned or elegant people still do roll their r's a little.

Celebrian
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 05, 2004 07:27
If anyone can explain how to pronounce the "ae," (for an English speaker) I'd like to hear it. Tolkien doesn't explain it at all; I guess he thinks its hopeless. I tend to make it a little longer than the English long i, and try to go straight from "a" to "e" but it's practically impossible.


I've heard Tolkien pronounce the sound on tape in the word na-chaered (I suppose you can guess what he was reciting!) Sindarin a +e pronounced in a single syllable is the best way to explain it. Now if you live in the American Deep South, you might hear the same sound in typical 'redneck' pronunciation. Many people here in Louisiana pronounce the word 'my' like Sindarin mae because of the local dialectal variant of the [ai] sound.
Celebrian_Kementari
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Post RE: rolling R
on: September 08, 2004 10:28
Le hannon! I have heard that recording, long long ago, and I'll try to get ahold of it. Until then, do you think I can get the "ae" from a Texan? There are plenty of those at my college. But the few Lousianians I have known said "my" as I do--ai.
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