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IdhrenethMeril
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post Poem Translation
on: February 18, 2004 02:34
I recently tried to translated this poem from a book of mine, and would like any feedback/suggestions you could give me. The order of it goes English, Sindarin, and literal meaning.

Ten rings there are, and nine gold torcs
Cyrf vae ____, a rî gôl neder
Rings ten ____, and crowns gold nine
>>>I wasn't sure how to get across the idea of "there are"

On the battlechiefs of old;
Erin erenoeth iaur;
On the warkings [of] old;
>>>"Erenoeth" was a word of my own creation coming from king (aran) and war (auth)


Eight princely virtues, and seven sins
Cairdh ernileb doloth, a úgerth odog
Deeds princely eight, and sins seven
>>>"Ernileb" is a word of my own creation. I took the word for prince (ernil) and added the ending "-eb"

For which a soul is sold;
An [which] faer banga;
For [which] a spirit is traded;
>>>Wasn't quite sure how to get across the idea of "which." Do I even need that word?

Six is the sum of the earth and sky;
Eneg i dhangweth en-amar a menel;
Six [is] the answer of the earth and sky;

Of all things meek and bold;
Pain naid ú-faer a beren;
[Of] all things not spirited (spiritless) and bold;

Five is the number of ships that sailed
Leben i ‘wanod na gair reviant
Five [is] the number of ships that sailed

From Atlantis lost and cold;
O Atlantis ú-díra a ring;
From Atlantis not seen and cold;

Four kings of the Westerlands were saved,
Erain ganad e-dyr annûn hemp;
Kings four of the lands west were kept;

Three kingdoms now behold;
Ernaid neled tíra;
Kingdoms three see;

Two come together in love and fear,
Tad tôl godrof e meleth a achas,
Two come together in love and fear

In Llyonesse stronghold;
Ed Llyonesse othronn;
In Llyonesse stronghold;

One world there is, one God, and one birth
Amar vin ___, ___ min, a hên vin
World one ___, ___ one, and child one
>>>Again, I didn't know about "there is," and I couldn't find a word that would work for "God."

The Druid stars foretold.
I ‘il ithron treneri.
The stars wizard told.


EDIT: As far as numbers go, I'm using what CoE says in the lesson about using the numbers as adjectives, and they are therefore lenited. There was however, something recently on the ELFLING mailing list contradicting that, so I'm not really sure...

[Edited on 22/2/2004 by IdhrenethMeril]
Naneth
Elvish 101 Moderator
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 18, 2004 06:48
IdhrenethMeril, I'll have a look at this tomorrow. It's been very hectic this week for me !!
IdhrenethMeril
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 21, 2004 07:27
That's okay, no rush! If I remember correctly, at the Sindarin chat last night somebody said something about your Internet being down.
ElwenPeredhil
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 21, 2004 09:10
IdhrenethMeril can you tell me what book this poem comes from? It looks very familiar. Is it from Stephen Lawheads "Pendragon Cycle"?

Just curious! Sindarin is a wonderful language for poems like these.

ElwenPeredhil
IdhrenethMeril
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 21, 2004 09:58
Indeed it is from the Pendragon Cycle! They are excellent books, and I love the poem.
ElwenPeredhil
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 21, 2004 12:21
Indeed, they are wonderful books! I'd love to see how this turns out when you are finished!

Le hannon!
ElwenPeredhil
Iavas
rochvellon
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 21, 2004 06:27
Suilad Idhreneth! I'm not Naneth, but I've got some time right now so thought I'd look through this. I have some suggestions and comments for you, but I love this poem!

Ten rings there are, and nine gold torcs
Cyrf vae ____, a rî gôl neder
Rings ten ____, and crowns gold nine
>>>I wasn't sure how to get across the idea of "there are"

I think this is a time when I might use no. Maybe something like No gyrf bae, a sigil neder valthen.
Be ten rings and ten necklaces of gold. I lenited "rings" as the object. "p" lenits to "b" so "bae" rather than "vae". A torc is a golden neck band or sometimes arm band so I used "sigil" rather than "rî" which is "crown". Also, you need an adjective for "gold" rather than a noun so I chose "malthen" lenited to "valthen".
On the battlechiefs of old;
Erin erenoeth iaur;
On the warkings [of] old;
>>>"Erenoeth" was a word of my own creation coming from king (aran) and war (auth)
I might change it up just a bit to something like Erin otherain ned lui iaur On the battlelords in ancient times. My construction for "battlechiefs" is just a little bit different idea from yours and not necessarily more correct.
Eight princely virtues, and seven sins
Cairdh ernileb doloth, a úgerth odog
Deeds princely eight, and sins seven
>>>"Ernileb" is a word of my own creation. I took the word for prince (ernil) and added the ending "-eb"

Certh doloth ernileb, a úgerth odog
The plural for "cardh" is "certh" and I just rearranged the order of number and adjective here so you are consistent with word order throughout the translation.
For which a soul is sold;
An [which] faer banga;
For [which] a spirit is traded;
>>>Wasn't quite sure how to get across the idea of "which." Do I even need that word?

I think we might be able to use "i" here for "which" as this "which" refers back to the "seven sins". Maybe An i faer bangen For which a spirit is traded/sold. I would use the past participle for "banga-" here. The worst mistranslation you might get here would be "for the soul is traded" and I don't think that would be so bad.
Six is the sum of the earth and sky;
Eneg i dhangweth en-amar a menel;
Six [is] the answer of the earth and sky;

Eneg i 'onoded en-amar a menel; I think I would use the gerund of "sum up" for "sum" here rather than answer, but that's personal preference.
Of all things meek and bold;
Pain naid ú-faer a beren;
[Of] all things not spirited (spiritless) and bold;

I-naid pain pen-faer a beren Of all things spiritless and bold[/b] I would still use the genitival article here because we are still talking about "six is the sum of". I would also use "pen-faer" for "spiritless". The "ú" on a noun gives it a negative connotation and might imply things of bad spirit.
Five is the number of ships that sailed
Leben i ‘wanod na gair reviant
Five [is] the number of ships that sailed

Leben i 'wanod i-chair i revianner I think "number of ships" is genitival so I would use the plural genitival article here. Then I would use the past tense with a plural marker for "sailed" as the sentence is actually continued in the next line.

From Atlantis lost and cold;
O Atlantis ú-díra a ring;
From Atlantis not seen and cold;

O Atlantis eglan a ring
From Atlantis forsaken and cold;
I chose "forsaken" because it was abandoned when it sank into the see. It was not just hidden, it was "lost" as in gone forever and destroyed. Just my take on the meaning of "lost". Other synonyms seem to be "doomed, destroyed, defeated, and condemned".
Four kings of the Westerlands were saved,
Erain ganad e-dyr annûn hemp;
Kings four of the lands west were kept;

Erain ganad i-ndyr annui bronner
Four kings of the western lands survived.
Since "lands" is plural, you need the plural genitival article and "dôr" is derived from primative "nd" so it mutates according to the bottom portion of the mutations chart. I would use an adjective for "western" rather than a noun. and "survived" for "saved" instead of "kept" simply because "kept" seems to me like a voluntary choice of the people while maybe they decided to let the other kings drown! (Who knows, maybe they did! But anyway...)
Three kingdoms now behold;
Ernaid neled tíra;
Kingdoms three see;

Ernaid neled si tíro Three kingdoms now see;
I just added "now" and used the imperative form of "tíra-".
Two come together in love and fear,
Tad tôl godrof e meleth a achas,
Two come together in love and fear

Tad go-dól vi meleth a niphred Two come together in love and fear.
I chose to use the prefix for "together" and attach it to the verb as opposed to using the adverb which means "through together". I also used vi for "in" and I chose niphred for "fear" because, not only is it attested, but it keeps you from having to change the form you are using for "and".
In Llyonesse stronghold;
Ed Llyonesse othronn;
In Llyonesse stronghold;

Vi Llyonesse othronn vi for "in".
One world there is, one God, and one birth
Amar vin ___, ___ min, a hên vin
World one ___, ___ one, and child one
>>>Again, I didn't know about "there is," and I couldn't find a word that would work for "God."

No amar vin, Eru vin, a hên vin
I would use no here again for "be" and Eru is God.
The Druid stars foretold.
I ‘il ithron treneri.
The stars wizard told.

I elenath Ithron ab-drenerir
That stars of the Wizard foretold.
I chose elenath because it is attested and it keeps you from having too many initial "i's" in succession there. Better phonetically, IMHO. I also used it to mean "that" rather than "the" because this clause is a continuation of the previous line. I used the past tense verb with the plural ending and used "ab-" prefixed to make it "foretold". And, yes, before everyone pounces on me and tells me "ab-" means "after", I do know this. It was suggested to me that this could be used to mean "after the present" i.e. the future. You can decide for yourself if you choose to use it like this.
EDIT: As far as numbers go, I'm using what CoE says in the lesson about using the numbers as adjectives, and they are therefore lenited. There was however, something recently on the ELFLING mailing list contradicting that, so I'm not really sure...

It's not completely contradicting actually because the examples that were given were ordinal numbers, not cardinal. To my knowledge we still don't have any examples of cardinal numbers used and can't be positive exactly how they would behave. Until there is further evidence, one will just have to make choices for themselves as to the best and most probable course of action to take. Personally, for now, I choose to use them like adjectives - following the nouns they describe and undergoing lenition. I will change that later if we get evidence that they should be used in a different manner.





[Edited on 22/2/2004 by Iavas]
IdhrenethMeril
Enethdan Edhellen
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 22, 2004 03:56
Hennaid rim Iavas!

About using the verb "to be," I had tried to get around that, but if you think it's alright I'm sure it is!


Here's the final poem:

No gyrf bae, a sigil neder valthen
Erin otherain ned lui iaur;
Certh doloth ernileb, a úgerth odog
An i faer bangen;
Eneg i ‘onoded en-amar a menel;
I-naid pain pen-faer a beren;
Leben i 'wanod i-chair i revianner
O Atlantis eglan a ring;
Erain ganad i-ndyr annui bronner;
Ernaid neled si tíro;
Tad go-dól vi meleth a niphred,
Vi Llyonesse othronn;
No amar vin, Eru vin, a hên vin
I elenath Ithron treneri.
Iavas
rochvellon
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 22, 2004 11:14
About using the verb "to be," I had tried to get around that, but if you think it's alright I'm sure it is!
Just note that the only form I've used is the attested imperative form no. I would not recommend using another form unless absolutely unavoidable.
I elenath Ithron treneri.
You still need a plural ending for your verb here. trenerir
Bellenion
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 24, 2004 02:37
It's not completely contradicting actually because the examples that were given were ordinal numbers, not cardinal. To my knowledge we still don't have any examples of cardinal numbers used and can't be positive exactly how they would behave. Until there is further evidence, one will just have to make choices for themselves as to the best and most probable course of action to take. Personally, for now, I choose to use them like adjectives - following the nouns they describe and undergoing lenition. I will change that later if we get evidence that they should be used in a different manner.


There is still an indirect example - _Lheben teil brann i annon ar neledh neledhi gar godrebh_
That’s the reason I usually put cardinal numbers in front of the nouns they describe, whether Tolkien made the sentence in more likely a poetic way or not, for this is the only example. (If under the assumption that Tolkien didn’t abandon). I think this way is also adopted in Modern Welsh: y ddau f ag bach “lit. the two bags small” = “the two small bags”

Suil!

[Edited on 24/2/2004 by Bellenion]
Iavas
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 24, 2004 03:11
There is still an indirect example - _Lheben teil brann i annon ar neledh neledhi gar godrebh_
That’s the reason I usually put cardinal numbers in front of the nouns they describe, whether Tolkien made the sentence in more likely a poetic way or not, for this is the only example. (If under the assumption that Tolkien didn’t abandon). I think this way is also adopted in Modern Welsh: y ddau f ag bach “lit. the two bags small” = “the two small bags”
Lol.. Yeah, I know. Actually I made my previous post before I'd read the last few posts to the discussion on Elfling. This example is Noldorin, but so is much of what we are using as Sindarin. I am leaning now towards agreement with this practice, but will still withhold a definite opinion on the matter until we have more evidence! I was hoping that my previous post was going to fly under the radar, but, alas, Bellenion, mellon nín, you caught it!
Naneth
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 24, 2004 03:16
For an interesting look at "Lheben teil brann i annon ar neledh neledhi gar godrebh" and also "gar" which we use for "able to" right now, go here:

http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/site/articles/langues/theories/thror.html

Not exactly an "attested sentence" !!
*sigh* .... sometimes we have so little to go on
Bellenion
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Post RE: Poem Translation
on: February 24, 2004 07:18
For an interesting look at "Lheben teil brann i annon ar neledh neledhi gar godrebh" and also "gar" which we use for "able to" right now, go here:

http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/site/articles/langues/theories/thror.html

Not exactly an "attested sentence" !!
*sigh* .... sometimes we have so little to go on


Sounds interesting, and it will be more interesting if the article is in any other languages I understand
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