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LoneWarrior3
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Post RE: Arwen and Eowyn
on: November 13, 2010 06:32
I like them both, but ever since I had this crazy-insane dream that revolved around Eowyn, she's been my favorite.
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Arveleg
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on: August 05, 2016 07:06
As far as the movie goes, Eowyn.
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Gandolorin
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on: August 06, 2016 03:25
Did a quick scan of the thread from its beginnings. A superficial impression: Arwen wasn't active / martial enough. PJ & Co, as per the EE, had considered Arwen as being physically present at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Fortunately, they decided against an idiocy which would have taken the number one spot among their idiocies, hands down. But just think of one "fact": Arwen had older twin brothers, Elladan and Elrohir. Very little is said about them in the books, perhaps they were present at Arwen's wedding to Aragorn in the movie ... But from what little can be gleaned from the books, those twins were possibly the most devastating enemies of Sauron's minions (just think of their mother Celebrían having been captured by Orcs). With all the mind-bending battle-action PJ has given Legolas to do in the six movies, I would guess that the twins in full fury against legions of Sauron's minions would have made PJ's Legolas look like a pathetic wimp. These two were weapons of mass destruction against Orcs & Co. So why would Arwen have to do any Orc-slashing herself? She can concentrate on using her skills to support the cause of hope in Sauron's enemies. Éowyn had enormously less experience to go on, and more direct and recent reasons for feeling a need to do some damage against Sauron's minions (which ultimately also included Saruman). And Besides the destruction of the One Ring, she did the second-most-serious damage to Sauron's plans. Both Arwen and Éowyn played parts far beyond those of warriors or even generals. So I do not really see any choice to be made.
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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: August 07, 2016 09:34
Lovely post, Gando! It's nice to see the twins roles placed in some perspective.
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Arveleg
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Post Arwen & Eowyn
on: August 07, 2016 10:12
Gandolorin said:
Did a quick scan of the thread from its beginnings. A superficial impression: Arwen wasn't active / martial enough. PJ & Co, as per the EE, had considered Arwen as being physically present at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Fortunately, they decided against an idiocy which would have taken the number one spot among their idiocies, hands down. But just think of one "fact": Arwen had older twin brothers, Elladan and Elrohir. Very little is said about them in the books, perhaps they were present at Arwen's wedding to Aragorn in the movie ... But from what little can be gleaned from the books, those twins were possibly the most devastating enemies of Sauron's minions (just think of their mother Celebrían having been captured by Orcs). With all the mind-bending battle-action PJ has given Legolas to do in the six movies, I would guess that the twins in full fury against legions of Sauron's minions would have made PJ's Legolas look like a pathetic wimp. These two were weapons of mass destruction against Orcs & Co. So why would Arwen have to do any Orc-slashing herself? She can concentrate on using her skills to support the cause of hope in Sauron's enemies. Éowyn had enormously less experience to go on, and more direct and recent reasons for feeling a need to do some damage against Sauron's minions (which ultimately also included Saruman). And Besides the destruction of the One Ring, she did the second-most-serious damage to Sauron's plans. Both Arwen and Éowyn played parts far beyond those of warriors or even generals. So I do not really see any choice to be made.


Well said Gandolorin! You pretty much articulate my thoughts on this!

About Elladan and Elrohir, the Sons of Elrond in the books,I think the most you read of them is in the 'Passing of the Grey Company' chapter in Return of the King. They have a place in the procession of the Company through the Paths of the Dead, and Elladan has some dialogue on the history as well.

as far as Arwen goes, She definitely was a power in that elvish telepathic ether, and I'll admit PJ Boyens & Co did somewhat get that aspect (not necessarily content) right with Aragorn's dream sequences. I wished the banner she made for the United Kingdom had made an appearance... but then there had to be two kingdoms for that to happen... and the ride of the Sons of Elrond with the Dunedain Rangers.... etc. I may be comitting purist blasphemy here, but I would not have been opposed to Arwen riding along as another member of the Grey Company with her brothers and the Rangers. It wouldn't have been THAT far-fetched and too far out of line from canon, but would give the more modern women another lady warrior. But then,that would have diminished Eowyn's role

On Eowyn, I think she was devastating to the plans of the enemy when, along with Meridoc, slew the Witch King. This caused Khumul to commit the reserves in Osgiliath earlier than planned. The movie did a reasonable job in her portrayal.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 11, 2016 11:09
I could have seen Elladan and Elrohir doing more damage in the books had Celebrían have been killed. Their anger and hatred for the Orcs would have intensified. I was pleased that PJ and Co didn't have Galadriel going to Helms Deep. Imagine her just waving her hand and using Nenya to destroy all the Orcs in go.
Gandolorin
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on: August 13, 2016 06:18
Galadriel in Helm's Deep? Eh, no, L_S, PJ and Co as per the relevant EE had considered "Arwen as being physically present at the Battle of Helm's Deep". Granted, Galadriel might have been able to do quick, serious damage to Saruman's troops (taking her drop-kicking Sauron way back into the east in the relevant Hobbit movie as what she was capable of). Arwen. Not Galadriel. And in the movies, thankfully neither, too idiotically contradicting canon (which PJ and Co did too often anyway). Even the LoTR scriptwriters weren't so cracked as to send Galadriel to Helm's Deep. She (among others) had other things to do during the main conflict centering on, in the end, Gollum's destruction of the One Ring.

[Edited on 08/13/2016 by Gandolorin]
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ItarildeSirfalas
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on: August 14, 2016 05:45
Evil~Shieldmaiden said:Lovely post, Gando! It's nice to see the twins roles placed in some perspective.


Agreed! I wish they'd had more presence in the books/films, as they would have had quite the motivation to kick some Orc butt!
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"Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." ~ Elrond ♥
Gandolorin
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on: August 28, 2016 01:02
ItarildeSirfalas said:
Evil~Shieldmaiden said:Lovely post, Gando! It's nice to see the twins roles placed in some perspective.


Agreed! I wish they'd had more presence in the books/films, as they would have had quite the motivation to kick some Orc butt!


Well, yes, perhaps for members of the "You know you're obsessed with Tolkien when..." club (like myself). But even back in the late 1990s, when PJ began filming, the American target audience for the blockbuster movie (so conceived) was what I remember as being the fourteen-and-a-half year old American boy. I mean in the RoTK EE, Jack Nicholson confesses to have missed the end of the (cinematic) movie because he thought "too many endings" (even such stellar actors are not immune to Hollywood's pernicious variant of "Gleichschaltung" - not a pretty term in the least!) and had gone out to start the family car to get the heating running - something that would get him fined here in Germany at least. Too many characters is most likely also a problem for the "attention-challenged" among viewers of the movies - the target audience pretty much being the definition of the malady.
And don't forget that RoTK premiered in late 2003; how many "smart"-phones existed at that time? Can you imagine Pokemon-Go challenged current generation sitting through the 3 hours 12 minutes (with intermission) of just the cinematic version? Never mind the four hours of the EE!
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ArwenLegolas
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on: October 11, 2020 02:59
Gandolorin, in the books she sat just pretty under a canopy when the Hobbits and Aragorn came to Rivendell. Liv Tyler said she would not play Arwen unless she would be more involved in the plot.
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Gandolorin
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on: October 15, 2020 02:47
ArwenLegolas said:Gandolorin, in the books she sat just pretty under a canopy when the Hobbits and Aragorn came to Rivendell. Liv Tyler said she would not play Arwen unless she would be more involved in the plot.

About the only thing we have of the Rivendell sequence is the feast after Frodo's recovery (at which Arwen was present) and the Council of Elrond (at which she was not). The rest of the two-month stay is passed over quckoly. But in 3018 TA, she was 2,777 years old (and 2,690 years older than hubby-to-be Aragorn). Elrond is over 6,500, Galadriel could be past 30,000. Impossible to bring across in a film, pretty much the same in a book. This aspect of the lives of the Elves is simply beyond anything we can truly imagine. As someone once mentioned tongue-in-cheek, a big problem was that all of the actors’ guilds worldwide simply had no real Elves (or Dwarves, or Hobbits – Orcs may have been easier) in their membership lists. Liv Tyler’s actual age at the time of filming was less than one hundredth of Arwen’s – that’s a tough call, even if Arwen at 2,777 could still pass for mid-20s in a superficial way (how to get across the fact that she’s actually roughly 2,750 years older than she looks!?).

I can sympathize with Liv from her viewpoint as an actress. I have somewhat less sympathy for the way PJ actually solved the problem.

[Edited on 10/15/2020 by Gandolorin]
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ArwenLegolas
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on: October 15, 2020 05:36
Sounds great to me. Age usually reflects itself in the eyes. Hard to find someone who has 2,700 year old looking eyes.
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