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Figwit
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Post 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 21, 2004 04:01
1) Why does Denethor inquire about Éomer? That's been bugging me for ages now !

2) The conversation that takes up almost half of this chapter is a bit of a battle in itself. How would you describe the different relationships in it: Faramir, Gandalf and Denethor?

3) How is the relationship between Faramir and Denethor? How does (the image of) Boromir interfere in this (think back of Book 2 and Faramir's words about his brother in Book 4)? Do you understand what happens at the end of this chapter?

4) The Siege: how does Tolkien describe it? What did you feel when reading it? How is it compared to Helm's Deep, what's the difference?

5) The Nazgûl play an important part in this chapter. How are they here, compared to their previous appearances in Book 1? The figure of the Witch-king: what does he symbolize?

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with Denethor, Théoden and old age.

[Edited on 21/6/2004 by Figwit]
atalante_star
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 21, 2004 06:43
1) Why does Denethor inquire about Éomer? That's been bugging me for ages now !


Well presumably because Denethor would consider Eomer as the power in Rohan. He is asking about the state of Rohan and its policies, wanting to judge whether they will come to the aid of Gondor.

As far as I can tell, Denethor may not know about the renewed strength of Theoden (the only reference in conversation before this chapter is when Gandalf says Merry is with Theoden). If he thought that Theoden was still under Grima's influence, he would look to Eomer to muster the Rohirrim.

And seeing as he does seem to know quite a lot about the Rohirrim, he might know that Eomer had been out of favour with the king, and wanted to know whether he was in a position to command the riders.

Erm, I did think of something else, but now I can't remember ... I'll edit this post when I do
Figwit
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 22, 2004 09:15
Gosh, I hadn't thought about that at all! Thanks atalante, good points there. And here I was looking for some evil plot...
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 25, 2004 05:33
Tough questions Figwit!

1) Why does Denethor inquire about Éomer? That's been bugging me for ages now!

Pippin seemed amazed that Denethor knew so much about the Rohirrim but Pippin himself could have been the source. The fact that Denethor asked about Éomer is interesting. It is possible that Pippin revealed a great deal of information to Beregond (even more than he intended to). Beregond, in turn, would report all that Pippin had said to Denethor if he had been so ordered.

Quote fromMinas Tirith:

They ate and drank; and they talked now of Gondor and its ways and customs, now of the Shire and the strange countries that Pippin had seen.

I don’t think that it would out of character for Pippin to talk about the people he had met along the way as well. Especially if he was comfortable and had drunk a couple of pints. Although he was careful not to say too much about Aragorn (because Gandalf had warned him not to), Éomer might indeed be someone that Pippin would enjoy talking about. Denethor would appreciate hearing (from Beregond) about such a fine warrior.

Also in The Riders of Rohan just after Aragorn tells Éomer of Boromir’s death:

“Your news is all of woe!” cried Éomer in dismay. “Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came. But we have had no word of this grief out of Gondor. When did he fall?”

The two men were obviously aware of one another. It is quite likely that Boromir would sing a song of praise about Éomer to his father Denethor. It also seems clear that Rohan expected to hear such important news.

Also, perhaps there was ‘horse’ business between Rohan and Gondor. Gondor did have some swift horses for messengers. Perhaps these messengers had talked to Éomer or knew about his warrior ways. Word has a way of getting around.

I'll be back...
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 25, 2004 09:16
Okay onto another question. Forgive my wordiness.

4) The Siege: how does Tolkien describe it? What did you feel when reading it? How is it compared to Helm's Deep, what's the difference?

Tolkien describes the siege in terms of hopelessness throughout. The apprehension of what is to come is palatable and the waiting excruciating. It has an air of reality about it. To me the siege and the terror of all involved (in Gondor) is completely believable. Throughout Tolkien uses words like dread, despair, peril, fear, death, dark, horror, etc. Tolkien uses repetition effectively to set the mood.

The fighting spirits of the men of Gondor and those who are aiding them are tested from the beginning. The cries of the Fell Riders are paralysing and terrible. “…piercing the heart with poisonous despair.” A taste of more to come. As readers, we barely have time to breathe. A bit later, “…a faint cry (of the winged Shadows) would come, and many who heard it would stand stricken with a passing dread, while the less stouthearted quailed and wept.” There are brief moments of hope: Gandalf driving off the Nazgûl by emitting a shaft of white light from his raised hand. A ray of hope against the hammer of despair. Faramir is saved. Later Gandalf raises his hand again to drive off the Nazgûl thus rescuing Faramir, among others, from certain death. The siege itself is organized and well thought out from a tactical point of view. Every minute of it is a misery. The shower of heads branded with the “foul token of the Lidless Eye” is a particularly gruesome scene. The Nazgûl continue to terrorize all. The engines. The drums. It seems to go on and on. Many give up and seem intent on dying. Only Gandalf gives the fighters hope and encouragement. The Stewart is succumbing to despair and madness. He can be of no inspiration now. Our hero, Faramir, is gravely injured. Pippin is relatively helpless.

The siege just seems so relentless.

The battle at Helm’s Deep seemed relatively quick in comparison to the siege at Gondor. IMHO, it has an air of fantasy about it. Perhaps it’s the thunder and lightning. There isn’t the apprehension and the depth of dread that there is inThe Siege of Gondor. Even against overwhelming odds, there is hope in the participants. They seem eager to fight. Men grow weary but do not give up. Our heroes just happen to be in the right place at the right time. They are supporting each other, inspiring the other fighters, and giving us, the readers, hope. Gimli saves Éomer; Legolas saves Aragorn with his last arrow. We also have Legolas and Gimli playing a counting game. This lightens the mood somewhat. The swords are as important as the men that yield them. Our heroes never give up. None of them get inured. The King(s) ride out together in triumph. The horn echoes. Erkenbrand and Gandalf arrive in the nick of time and the remainder of the enemy is surrounded on all sides and defeated. And the Nazgûl are not present to threaten the sanity of all.

I felt apprehensive and claustrophobic throughout The Siege of Gondor. A depressingly heavy chapter. It was, at times, hard to read on. Events to come seemed utterly hopeless. Until the cock crowed. And that is at the end of the chapter!

Figwit
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 25, 2004 09:21
I like your answer to the first question a lot, Ruby! I hadn't thought that far, I'm not sure if Beregond would have reported all that Pippin said, but the link between Éomer's high words about Boromir and Denethor's interest had never occured to me. Thanks for bringing that up!

I felt apprehensive and claustrophobic throughout The Siege of Gondor. A depressingly heavy chapter. It was, at times, hard to read on. Events to come seemed utterly hopeless. Until the cock crowed. And that is at the end of the chapter!


I completely agree: claustrophobic is the exact word I'd use too.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 25, 2004 09:43
Thanks for your comments Figwit!

2) The conversation that takes up almost half of this chapter is a bit of a battle in itself. How would you describe the different relationships in it: Faramir, Gandalf and Denethor?

Faramir & Denethor:
Faramir, at first, seems comfortable talking to his father about his errand. Faramir is ever seeking his father’s approval –an elusive gift indeed. When Faramir, looking for support, inquires of Denethor, “ I hope I have not done ill?” his father becomes angry. Denethor says, “Your bearing is lowly in my presence.” And Denethor displays jealousy because Faramir’s attention is drawn to Gandalf, “…have I not seen your eye fixed on Mithrandir, seeking, whether you said well or too much? He has long had your heart in his keeping.” Denethor continues to criticize Faramir comparing him with his brother. “For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil.” And later “He would have brought me a mighty gift.” The bringing of the gift would have been proof of Boromir’s loyalty and love for his father. Faramir, as is his way, does not always follow orders; he makes his own decisions and does what he believes to be right. Denethor has expected blind obedience from his sons but Faramir continues to think for himself. IMHO, Denethor believes (or so it seems) that he and only he can make ‘good’ and ‘right’ decisions.

Faramir, with justifiably injured feelings becomes defensive. He resigns himself to his fate. He so desperately wants to please his father but nothing he says or does is enough.

Denethor is, after all of this, a concerned father. He comments on Faramir’s weariness and tells him to rest. As if no ill words were spoken between them.

Later, again wanting to do right by his father, Faramir agrees to defend Osgiliath (as Boromir had) against his own assessment of the situation. “Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead – if you command it.” His father commands him to go. Faramir says farewell and asks his father to think better of him should he return. Here we find IMHO one of the most disturbing statements in this chapter. Denethor says, “That depends on the manner of your return.” What would it take for Faramir to satisfy Denethor? A martyr’s death perhaps. Does he really believe that Faramir can beat the odds? At this point, does he even really care? I can’t say.

After Faramir is injured, Prince Imrahil says to Denethor, “Your son has returned, lord, after great deeds.” Denethor says nothing. This seems to be the point at which Denethor’s depression becomes master over him.

Denethor & Gandalf:
Gandalf, as he generally does, tells it like it is. Denethor responds with strong arguments but he thinks only of Gondor. His vision is short sighted. Gandalf, on the other hand, thinks not only of those who live in Gondor but also of all living things. His vision is more far sighted. Neither can reason with the other. Neither can change the other’s mind. Denethor does not seem to understand the real power of the ring. He trusts only himself. Pippin describes clearly the tension between the two men, “…almost it seemed as if their glances were like blades from eye to eye, flickering as they fenced”. This type of conversation continues. Gandalf telling it like it is. Denethor argues that he already knows certain things and continues to mock Gandalf. Of the Lord of the Nazgûl, Denethor says, to Gandalf, among other things, “Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are outmatched?”

Denethor & Pippin:
It is to Pippin that Denethor reveals his true misery. Pippin saw tears on Denethor’s face. Denethor feels guilt for sending his son, “unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril”. He has given up on life at this point convinced that all he has lived for has been taken from him. He believes that the enemy has the ring. There is no hope left in Denethor. He is determined to stay with Faramir until the end. Pippin hears Denethor’s plan to burn on a pyre. And he plans to take Faramir with him even though Faramir is not dead! Denethor releases Pippin from his service. Pippin refuses and goes in search of Gandalf.

Gandalf:
Gandalf is at his best in this chapter. Throughout the chapter Gandalf is the emissary of hope. He does display fear upon hearing that Frodo and Sam have gone to Cirith Ungol. He even finds some hope in this report (while speaking with Pippin later).
Gandalf attempts to discourage Faramir from leaving the city to no avail. He tells Faramir, hoping to raise his downtrodden spirits, “Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end.”
He tells the fighters that Théoden will come.
When Gandalf takes over Denethor’s leadership position he tirelessly lifts the fighting mens’ spirits only to have those spirits crushed again. To the Lord of the Nazgûl, at the end of the chapter, Gandalf is authoritative, “You cannot enter here…”

Phew...
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 26, 2004 02:06
1) Why does Denethor inquire about Éomer? That's been bugging me for ages now !
Perhaps Denethor was trying to show Pippin or Gandalf how much he knew when it seemed impossible to know so much, or Tolkien was showing the reader how much Denethor knew. However, I think it's very strange... any of the three answers given so far seems to take too much figuring out and inferring.

5. The Nazgûl play an important part in this chapter. How are they here, compared to their previous appearances in Book 1? The figure of the Witch-king: what does he symbolize?
In Book 1 (which I really need to reread), the Nazgûl were servants of Sauron looking for the Ring, always seeming, to the Hobbits, to be following them far behind, but not far enough, as if the Nazgûl are hovering on the edge of their vision where they can't be seen. Sneaking around, they terrify the Hobbits, but excluding the scenes at Bucklebury Ferry and the Ford of the Bruinen, they Hobbits never see the Nazgûl or are in immediate danger. Now, the Nazgûl seem to be much more sinsiter, as is shown by them being referred to as Nazgûl instead of Ringwraiths or Black Riders. Now the seige is beginning and tension is mounting, and most of the purpose of the Nazgûl is to terrify. As they fly over Minas Tirith and scream, their mere presence is enough to make the men of Gondor "stand stricken with a passing dread, while the less stouthearted quailed and wept." They seem less servants of Sauron than an embodiment of Sauron himself.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: June 26, 2004 10:03
5) The Nazgûl play an important part in this chapter. How are they here, compared to their previous appearances in Book 1?

In Book 1, the Black Riders were intent on finding the ring. They were stalking the Hobbits. The Hobbits were in mortal danger in Bree. Merry experienced the ‘black breath’, which made him pass out and gave him terrible nightmares. And had Strider not insisted that they sleep in the parlour at the Prancing Pony, the story may have ended (or be considerably changed) right then. Their beds had been tossed about, the bolsters slashed and the brown mat, that Nob had fashioned to represent Frodo’s head, was torn to pieces. On a couple of occasions Merry, Pippin, and Sam were so terrified of the Black Riders that they fell flat on their faces paralysed with fear. Frodo, as the ring bearer, had a different experience with the Nazgûl . The Nazgûl’s mission was to find the ring and bring it to Sauron.

The Nazgûl were frightening in Book 1 but now they are even more so. The closer they get to Mordor the greater their strength seems to become. Pippin recalled the terrible screech but says that it had “…grown in power and hatred”. The Nazgûl’s ability to send grown fighting men screaming and cowering in terror is a powerful weapon almost like some kind of deadly gas. The screech is disorienting and incapacitates most who hear it. The beasts that they now ride are much more sinister than the black horses in Book 1. They are described as, “…birdlike forms, horrible as carrion-fowl yet greater than eagles, cruel as death.” We can imagine how large these beasts are since the eagles in LOTR are enormous. They cast great shadows and blot out the light. With these beasts the Nazgûl now have more speed and the ability to swoop down on people. The beasts most likely have the keen eyesight of any predator bird. This would also be an advantage to the Nazgûl. Scary. The Nazgûl’s mission here seems to be to debilitate their enemy and set them up for the kill.

The figure of the Witch-king: what does he symbolize?

The Witch-king himself says he is Death with a capital ‘D’. I believe here he means more than just physical death; he means spiritual death as well. And the death of freedom. He is the embodiment of evil: Sauron’s greatest weapon.

Do you understand what happens at the end of this chapter?

It is the end of the house of Stewards. Denethor’s mind has unravelled to the point of no return.

The crowing of the cock at the end of the chapter is a powerful symbol. The cock’s crow literally welcomes a new day. The dawn. Only a while back Gandalf had said, “There will be no dawn.” The cock's crow signifies a triumph of light over darkness. Of good over evil. Of hope over despair. If any of you have ever lived on a farm, you know who is King of the roost. Every morning his crow reminds us that, he, the King, has returned.


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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: July 05, 2004 11:28
1) Why does Denethor inquire about Éomer?

I can only put it in the simplest terms as I see it. Perhaps Denethor is just interested in whether Éomer, as Théoden is incapable of leadership as far as he, Denethor, is aware, has the authority to bring troops from Rohan to aid Gondor.

Perhaps, also Denethor wonders about the relationship between Théoden and Éomer in relation to his, Denethor's relationship with Faramir. Both Théoden and Denethor have had, or have, little time for the remaining male in their respective families. Théoden having lost Théodred and Denethor having lost Boromir. And whilst Éomer may want to help Gondor, Denethor knows that Theoden has not always been as keen, in the same way as Faramir would fight to save Gondor, but he, Denethor, is resigned to it's imminent downfall.

If all that makes sense, what I am basically trying to say is that Denethor wants to know if Éomer is in charge.

4) The Siege: how does Tolkien describe it? What did you feel when reading it? How is it compared to Helm's Deep, what's the difference?

As with all the battle scenes and the build up to them, Tolkien must have drawn on his experiences of war. He must have seen and felt the atmosphere both before and during the battles he participated in and could relate these feelings in such a way as to transport the reader into feeling he/she was there. He related the darkness and fear of knowing what was coming, but yet not knowing.

The atmosphere in Minas Tirith, for me, is one of oppression, hopelessness, despair, pointlessness and fear.

At Helm's Deep there was hope, albeit small. They felt that Helm's Deep had been assailed before and held. Also there was the knowledge that Gandalf would be coming to aid them. At Minas Tirith, they must have felt no such hope. Aragorn had gone off to the Paths of the Dead and could be lost and there was no surety that Rohan would be in time or would in fact help. The City and it's occupants were on their own against daunting odds.

I'm playing catchup as far as this and the next couple of chapters, but I'll get there by degrees. :love:

As RubySandybanks intimates, this chapter is an extremely hard one to take in. It's long and wordy, with lots of movement, although I wouldn't necessarily class it as depressing, more intense than anything.

And thanks to RubySandybanks for your encouragement. :love:


[Edited on 5/7/2004 by Rosearialelven]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: July 05, 2004 11:46
Rosearialelven,

I'm glad to see you're back. You're right, this chapter is long and wordy. And as you said:

"The atmosphere in Minas Tirith, for me, is one of oppression, hopelessness, despair, pointlessness and fear." -Rosearialelven

I found it hard to read on at times.

Tolkien surely used a lot of his wartime experience. IMHO, only one who has been there (in war) could write these battle scenes (and especially the pre-battle scenes) with such clarity. I really must take at life at Tolkien's life. I haven't really done that yet. :blush:

And Rosearialelven, You welcome. I do so look forward to your comments.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: July 07, 2004 02:55
5) The Nazgûl play an important part in this chapter. How are they here, compared to their previous appearances in Book 1? The figure of the Witch-king: what does he symbolize?

In Book 1, I took the Nazgûl to be ghostly assassins, a bit mindless, but relentless in their search for the one ring. In RotK they are much more powerful, they are focused even more and they have fell beasts, which gives them a hug advantage and they have the resources of the whole of the Dark Lord's troops, forces, etc.

The Witch-King symbolises utter power and contempt. He cares nothing about anything. To kill someone is little more than squashing a bug. He truly feels he is indominatable. No living man can kill him. Typical male ego, never gives it a second thought that there might be a woman lurking in the background. He is death and destruction.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: July 07, 2004 09:46
lol Rosearialelven:

Quote:
Typical male ego, never gives it a second thought that there might be a woman lurking in the background.

The Witch-King definitely represented the worst kind of male machismo, eh?

Very off topic: (If you've ever wondered why I so often put, ",eh?" at the end of sentences, it's because I'm Canadian and that's what many of us Canadians do. It's like breathing to some of us. Sorry, it just dawned on me how often I do that!)



I like your concise but to the point answers. I have always had a problem with wordiness. I'd say that's fairly obvious.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: July 15, 2004 10:32
2) The conversation that takes up almost half of this chapter is a bit of a battle in itself. How would you describe the different relationships in it: Faramir, Gandalf and Denethor?

Faramir - Gandalf:
To me, Faramir's relationship with Gandalf is one of a favourite Uncle - Nephew. I think because of the way Denethor has treated Faramir, he warms to Gandalf. Also being a seemingly more gentle and sensitive person that Boromir, he is willing to learn from Gandalf, who clearly has more time for the young Gondorian than Denethor does.

Gandalf - Denethor:
Denethor seems jealous and intolerant of Gandalf. Perhaps Denethor has twinges of guilt in the way he treats Faramir and resents the relationship of the Wizard and his younger son. Also Denethor appears to have little time for Gandalf's teachings.

Faramir - Denethor:
This has been covered before and I feel I have little more to say that hasn't been said already. As we know Denethor has an unwitting resentment towards his younger son and resents Gandalf's influence on Faramir.

[Edited on 15/7/2004 by Rosearialelven]
Figwit
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: August 04, 2004 12:56
Denethor says, "That depends on the manner of your return." What would it take for Faramir to satisfy Denethor? ... Does he really believe that Faramir can beat the odds? At this point, does he even really care?
~ RubySandybanks


I don't know. It's a very good question, and I went to re-read that section to see if maybe there were some clues, but nothing
I guess I always, automatically, assumed that Denethor knew he was sending Faramir to his death, but that it was a kind of punishment: if Faramir had gone in Boromir's stead, he wouldn't have lost his son. But that's crooked thinking, because he would have lost Faramir and who knows - maybe he would have ended up hating Boromir just as bad?
Perhaps he's punishing himself then, by sending his other son away as well?

Or it could indeed be that he believed Faramir could beat the odds, could pull this off? It seems strange to me, but the idea never occured to me before so... thanks for bringing it up!


...by them being referred to as Nazgûl in stead of Ringwraiths
~ LadyEowy_Of_Rohan


Yes, that change is very symbolic isn't it? They go from being scary ghosts haunting the Ring, to a real menacing part of an army.


The Nazgûl's ability to send grown fighting men screaming and cowering in terror is a powerful weapon almost like some kind of deadly gass.
~ RubySandybanks


Actually, it reminded me most of propaganda. Because the Nazgûl don't seem to do anything, they just fly across the city and shriek. It's the image, the idea, that's scaring the Men. They had this feeling of strength and courage, but then something comes along that shatters the image and immobilizes them. Their enemies are made out to be the most menacing creatures on earth, while it's only loads of Orcs and some Trolls, and then other Men. There's only 9 Nazgûl, but they seem to be able to immobilize an entire army.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: August 28, 2004 09:44
...by them being referred to as Nazgûl in stead of Ringwraiths
~ LadyEowy_Of_Rohan

Yes, that change is very symbolic isn't it? They go from being scary ghosts haunting the Ring, to a real menacing part of an army.
I like that idea; I hadn't thought of that...Actually, I was thinking that "Ringwraith" was an English word and not such a technical term - sort of Hobbit-y. It's more familiar than the strange, dark word "Nazgûl", which is in a strange, different language.
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: August 29, 2004 12:07
Ooh, now I hadn't thought of that! And that's a very good idea, probably better than mine. Tolkien does indeed play with his language throughout the book, and that would make perfect sense. Good thinking!
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Post RE: 5.IV. The Siege of Gondor
on: January 10, 2007 04:28
About Denethor asking after Eomer position: He knows that Eomer is now hier of Rohan but, he also knows (perhaps indeed through Boromir) that he is Marshall, not yet a ruler. He would risk sending a greater part of his army to Mundburg then Theoden who would think of his people sooner.

And I think that Denethor knew that he was sending Faramir into great danger, but I think he also knows that his men would follow Faramir to whatever doom. It had to be done, and that last comment might have been to push him even further: He was not expecting him to return.
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