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Figwit
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Post 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 18, 2004 09:33
1. This chapter tells us a little more about Legolas and Gimli. How are they portrayed here and compared to the rest of the book?

2. Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. Where did we find this idea before? How does it fit into the greater picture of Tolkien's mythology as sketched in LOTR?

3. This chapter resembles two other chapters: 3.IX. Flotsam & Jetsam and 2.II. The Council of Elrond. How do they resemble eachother, what are the differences? Do you think Tolkien did this on purpose?

4. How do you feel about the last debate and its outcome? Was it what you expected?

PbHf's Quote of the Week discusses a discussion between Legolas and Gimli about the importance of Men.

[Edited on 21/7/2004 by Figwit]
Aervir
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 21, 2004 08:59
1. This chapter tells us a little more about Legolas and Gimli. How are they portrayed here [...]?

IMHO Legolas and Gimli have come to Minas Tirith, the city of Men, as representatives of the other two important peoples/ cultures of Middle-earth: They stand for the elves and the dwarves and their judgement on the world of men. Their offer to take part in the war effort and to help rebuild Minas Tirith after the end of the war is supposed to point out the cooperation between the different races of Middle-earth during the reign of King Elessar (which may be somewhat surprising for men who, for example, haven't seen an elf for years beyond count ). However, their conversation about the deeds of Men shows a certain amount of foreshadowing about the disenchantment of Middle-earth, especially from Legolas's side: Gimli still seems to have confidence in the elder inhabitants of these lands (although he has to admit that he wrongly deemed himself more tough than Men!), he still seems to fully belong there, whereas Legolas has already begun to "fade" due to his newly awakened sea-longing: Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again unber beech or under elm. - Say not so! [...] There are countless things still to see in Middle-earth, and great works to do. But if all the fair folk take to the Havens, it will be a duller world for those who are doomed to stay.
(Sorry - I seem to have strayed a bit into the "Quote of the Week" topic here...)

2. Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. [...] How does it fit into the greater picture of Tolkien's mythology as sketched in LOTR?

I think the way this idea fits Tolkien's concept of mythology is best explained by quoting the sentence that comes immediately afterwards: With its own weapons was it [i.e. evil] worsted. Sorry for linking this concept not to LOTR (which I am supposed to be reading and discussing here), but to the Silmarillion where even the dissonant sounds of Melkor/Morgoth may eventually contribute to the great music of Arda's perfection and creation - thus becoming a power which still/Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill. (Oh my, I'd never have thought that I would ever quote Goethe's Faust in reference to Tolkien... ) Although Sauron's deeds won't contribute to any greater good (unlike Morgoth's) - at least I think so - he will be overthrown by his own pride and short-sightedness: He places all his trust in the recovery of his One Ring; however, Gandalf apparently implies that Sauron doesn't think about his enemies' wanting to destroy it. No, the Dark Lord assumes that Aragorn will claim it for himself! Evil will be overcome because evil can only produce deceit, cunning, force, and the will for power and domination, but not the willingness to sacrifice anything - and, what is more important, Sauron doesn't recognize that. This view of evil in Tolkien's mythology may be the reason why Sam sees the Shadow only as a passing thing in another passage ( unfortunately, I can't remember where ).

4.4. How do you feel about the last debate and its outcome? Was it what you expected?

I can't remember what I expected when I read LOTR for the first time... As far as its outcome is concerned, I'm not sure whether the "message" of their decision to walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for themselves is the ultimate "triviality" (a bit like self-help books, you know: just act nobly and do good and everything will turn out just fine ) or the ultimate statement on responsibility: Other evils there are that may come [...]. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set [...].





[Edited on 21/7/2004 by Aervir]
k
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 21, 2004 12:35
legolas and gimli...

In this chapter you suddenly (to me at least) realise that they are a differnt race to men. I know that seems a silly thing to say, but throughout the book they have worked and formed close friendships with men- aragorn, theoden etc etc. And now here they are walking around discussing this other race and you see that they arent really a part of it... especially with Gimli- after all everone knows the elves are a bit differnt after meeting galadriel, but we dont meet any dwarves of note in the book other than gimli, its easy to think of him as a short man, rather than a differnt race.

I like the way their friendship is highlighted in this as well... two outsiders thrown together to help another race gain power in the world, its a strange situation in a way.
gilraen_22
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 21, 2004 01:47
((i haven't read the previous posts yet, so forgive me if i say something that was already said. with great trepidation, i am finally daring to post here... and i wish that i could claim english is my second language, but, alas, i am a math person, which is why the following may make no sense. also, it has been about 8 months since I last read, and i only just picked up from this chapter.... no excuse, i know, just giving a warning! here goes))

1. This chapter tells us a little more about Legolas and Gimli. How are they portrayed here and compared to the rest of the book?

In my opinion, in this chapter they are portrayed as emissaries of the other peoples of Middle-Earth; great care is taken to relate how they were perceived by the locals when they walked to the Houses of Healing. Their personalities and goals were formed (basically throughout the whole book so far) from their part in the Fellowship -- each was one of the nine whose goal was to accompany the Ringbearer as far as they may, and at the least assist him in whatever way possible. From this, they were seen as equals to the men and hobbits, more like different 'forms' of men, not completely separate in lineage. In this chapter, however, it is seen that they did not only bring their individual qualities and experience with them, but that they are indeed representatives of their people: "'When Aragorn comes into his own, I shall offer him the service of the stonewrights of the Mountain,[...]'" and "'If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'" These lines indicate that even though we have been shown the individuality of the characters in the context of the Fellowship, they are still part of a bigger people.

2. ack, if I have time to reread the entire thing in the next few days, maybe I'll take a stab at this one, but for now I'll leave it to those of you who have it fresh in your mind!

3. This chapter resembles two other chapters: 3.IX. Flotsam & Jetsam and 2.II. The Council of Elrond. How do they resemble eachother, what are the differences? Do you think Tolkien did this on purpose?

This chapter resembles "Flotsam & Jetsam" clearly in that Legolas and Gimli are meeting up with Pippin and Merry for the first time after a long length of time away from each other, and are catching up on what the hobbits have been doing (or observing, as the case may be). Similar to Legolas' and Gimli's recounting the Paths of the Dead in 'The Last Debate', Merry and Pippin explain how Isengard was overtaken by the Ents.

If Tolkein did this for some purpose, it seems that (imho) it was to bring to the reader's attention the unique bond between the four people (lol what are they called collectively? 'fellows'??). Legolas and Gimli, when the hobbits were taken, expressed fear and worry for the two hobbits, and in "Flotsam and Jetsam", the hobbits show that they were worried about Legolas and Gimli going into battle as well.

Without rereading "Council of Elrond" (which, btw, I did for "F&J" ) I would say that "The Last Debate" resembles the earlier chapter mostly because of the preparations being discussed. Gandalf now serves in the role of Elrond, and the captains of the West comprise the 'council'. Gandalf explains and outlines what the enemies of Sauron now must do -- previously it had been to accompany the Ringbearer and assist him in his journey, and now they are branching off (still 'assisting' Frodo, just not directly) and have a new purpose.

As to whether this is on purpose or not... can't say for sure of course, but it seems that if it were on purpose, it is to show that although the Fellowship 'failed', the people of Middle-Earth may still assist the Ringbearer and so not 'fail' the Council.
(not sure if any of the previous made sense, but it did when it was coming out of my fingers :blush

4. How do you feel about the last debate and its outcome? Was it what you expected?

As with all of Gandalf's counsels, this one seems crazy, destined to fail; however any other possible suggestions make no sense. It is clear from the outcome of this debate that all the captains of men perceive the importance of doing everything in their power to assure the destruction of the Ring, even if it means certain death. Gandalf expresses the futility of the 'attack' on Mordor, which reveals the characters of the captains even more clearly. Their loyalty to Aragorn, who has not yet claimed the crown, is evident, as is their resignation that their duty is to draw forces away from Frodo.

I can't really speak for the second question, as I don't quite remember my reaction the first time I read this chapter, but realistically I would think that the debate should have been more heated, because of the factor of not knowing who exactly was in charge, and who would be left to man Minas Tirith while an army (more like a troop ) left and may possibly not be coming back. I think of all those present at the debate, Imrahil would be the one to ask to remain in Minas Tirith, if he were not as wise, or not of the blood of the Eldar. This may also be only because we are not given much background information about him, though we are aware of the tried and proven bravery of Eomer and the Elves. Other than that, what more can you expect from the captains of the 'new' West?

[Edited on 23/7/2004 by gilraen_22]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 23, 2004 07:31
I have enjoyed reading all your comments. Hopefully, I'll get around to adding some more of my thoughts too.

2. Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. Where did we find this idea before?

I have found several incidences where this theme can be found. I’m sure there are more though.

In The Voice of Saruman Pippin asks Gandalf:

“And what if Sauron does not conquer? What will you do to him?”

Gandalf replies:

“I? Nothing! I will do nothing to him. I do not wish for mastery. What will become of him? I cannot say. I grieve that so much that was good now festers in the tower. Still for us things have not gone badly. Strange are the turns of fortune! Often does hatred hurt itself! I guess that, even if we had entered in, we could have found few treasures in Orthanc more precious than the thing which Wormtongue threw down at us.”

In The Palantír Aragorn, Théoden, and Gandalf are talking about the palantír:

“Yes, there can be no doubt,” said Aragorn. “At last we know the link between Isengard and Mordor, and how it worked. Much is explained.”

“Strange powers have our enemies, and strange weaknesses!” said Théoden. “But it has long been said: oft evil will shall evil mar.”

In The Siege of Gondor Gandalf speaks to Pippin about Frodo:

“Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature. But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes. Good night!

In The Ride of the Rohirrim after Ghân-buri-Ghân speaks to Théoden:

“Good tidings!” cried Éomer. “Even in this gloom hope gleams again. Our Enemy’s devices oft serve us in his despite. The accursed darkness itself has been a cloak to us.”

How does it fit into the greater picture of Tolkien's mythology as sketched in LOTR?

This idea that evil will often destroy itself is a recurring theme in Lord of the Rings. It seems that the very nature of evil is its own downfall. Greed, lust for power, treachery and vanity seem to increase to such an extent that it blinds the Enemy to the reality of its situation. Our heroes use this to their advantage over and over again. On the other hand the forces of good: friendship, perseverance, self-sacrifice and mercy prevail. Evil corrupts (even itself) and eventually diminishes; goodness prevails and grows.

In each of these cases, the statements given on this theme offer hope in a precarious situation. The idea of hope is also a prevalent theme in this great epic novel.

Aevir says,
This view of evil in Tolkien's mythology may be the reason why Sam sees the Shadow only as a passing thing in another passage ( unfortunately, I can't remember where ).


I couldn't agree more but I can't remember where that is said either.

[Edited on 28/7/2004 by RubySandybanks]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 23, 2004 11:47
This view of evil in Tolkien's mythology may be the reason why Sam sees the Shadow only as a passing thing in another passage ( unfortunately, I can't remember where ).

I do remember, it's one of my favourite passages - but, I won't say any more because it's in a chapter that hasn't been read yet.

I'll return to the actual questions after I've reread this chapter, if I find something to say that the previous posters haven't already said much better than I.
Ithildin55
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 23, 2004 01:50
Some excellent discussion already posted, I’ll try to come back and add a few bits of my own on the other questions too.

3. Similarity with “Flotsam and Jetsam” and “The Council of Elrond”
For one thing, these chapters all cover a lot of material told in retrospect. Rather than following the action in real-time, we have a group of people sitting around talking about what has already happened. “Flotsam” and “Last Debate” are more the recounting of recent experiences among friends, whereas “Council” involves more debate about what to do and some ancient history in addition to tales of recent events.

And, yes, I think the chapters were probably purposely written this way, because readers needed a break from the tension. These chapters are the kind that give the reader a breather; a chance to enjoy some friendly conversation in a relatively safe environment; and an opportunity to reflect on what has happened and to put some things together to see a bigger picture. The “Council” chapter was also the vehicle for some of the back-story Tolkien wanted to include.

RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 28, 2004 08:21
4. How do you feel about the last debate and its outcome? Was it what you expected?

Perhaps a more apt title for this chapter would have been, “The Counsel of Gandalf.” Gandalf lays out their options before Aragorn, Elladan, Elrohir, Imrahil and Éomer. It seems clear to me that Gandalf will have his own way on this ‘debate’.

Imrahil says,

“Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?”

Gandalf rather harshly rebukes him telling Imrahil that the idea of retreating and sitting around is not “new counsel”.

Gandalf says,

“Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor?”

Aragorn answers the question that Gandalf put to him regarding the palantír. He does not question Gandalf’s ideas or offer any alternative solutions.

Éomer asks a question. He looks for clarification regarding Sauron’s vanity. I got the impression that Éomer doesn’t fully comprehend what Gandalf is saying. Indeed, later Éomer himself says,

“As for myself, I have little knowledge of these matters, but I need it not.”

It seems the only person that Gandalf needs to convince is Aragorn who already has great faith in Gandalf. The others, we can be almost certain will follow Aragorn to whatever end.

As gilraen_22 says,
I would think that the debate should have been more heated, because of the factor of not knowing who exactly was in charge, and who would be left to man Minas Tirith while an army (more like a troop ) left and may possibly not be coming back.

I agree. There didn’t seem to be a whole lot of debating going on. After the ‘debate’ the group discusses their plan of action.

I felt a great sense of impending doom after reading The Last Debate. It seemed to me that our heroes are heading out on a suicide mission: a no-win situation.

Aragorn gives us some hope when he mentions the rebuilding of Minas Tirith’s gate.

I have learned that it is better not to have expectations when it comes to anything that Gandalf is involved in. Even as I sense certain doom, I have faith that Gandalf is choosing the lesser of two evils. His arguments, as mad as they seem, make sense given the circumstances.
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: July 29, 2004 03:21
I'm truly sorry, but I am going to skip this chapter. Well, not the chapter, but the questions. Whoa, too deep and to much analysis needed. I need my brain cells for work too.

On to the next chapter. :love:
Lieutenant_Gothmog
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Post RE: 5.IX. The Last Debate
on: January 10, 2007 04:54
"I can't really speak for the second question, as I don't quite remember my reaction the first time I read this chapter, but realistically I would think that the debate should have been more heated, because of the factor of not knowing who exactly was in charge, and who would be left to man Minas Tirith while an army (more like a troop ) left and may possibly not be coming back. I think of all those present at the debate, Imrahil would be the one to ask to remain in Minas Tirith, if he were not as wise, or not of the blood of the Eldar."

Let's not forget Faramir, the official ruler of Gondor. He was well underway to recovery.
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