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Faerfaen
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Post West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 18, 2004 09:01
Okay, I'm confused. It suddenly struck me that the inscription Tolkien provides for the West Gate includes "Durin Aran Moria" -- "Durin, Lord of Moria. "

But.. wasn't Moria not known as Moria ("black pit") yet at that time? I was under the impression that when Celebrinbor as around, and Khazad-dum was in full swing and everything was still happy in Eregion the dwarven cities weren't known by that foul name yet.

Am I misremembering my history?

Silmarwen22
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 08:47
I think technically you're correct-but apparently by the late third age (in retrospect), the names Khazad dum and Moria were used interchangeably.
Faerfaen
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 10:03
By the late third age, you're correct of course.

But "Moria" is whats written on the door. Why would Celebrimbor write "black pit" on the door if it Khazad-dum hadn't fallen yet?

As meticulous as Tolkien usually is, I'd suspect there's a logical answer somewhere, probably to do with my ignorance. Though I suppose he's entitled to a mistake or two as well if not.

atalante_star
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 11:05
Well there are several possibilities. Some of which are below ....

1) Tolkien messed up. Quite likely I think. Though there are traces that he used Moria and Khazad-dûm interchangeably in other places - notably the name "Angerthas Moria" referring to the Cirth runes of Khazad-dum.

2) Elves always had called Khazad-dûm Moria.

3) The dwarvish language was a very private one. For a door facing the Elven state of Eregion, would the dwarves let Celebrimbor use the dwarvish word for their realm?

4) At the time of writing of LotR, apparently Moria was the Elven name of Khazad-dum (with the name Hadhodrond being invented by Tolkien later. It was placed in Silmarillion, but it was too late to make a revision to LotR) Will try and find the HoME refs for that.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 02:28
possibilities;
Moria doesn't need to have an evil connotation. The name could be simply a descriptive one.

In 'The Peoples of Middle-Earth" II The Appendix on Languages Moria is translated as Black Chasm as well as Black Pit.
Also; Moria is known as Dwarrowdelf and In his letters (referred to in HOME VI, pg 173-note 17) dwarrow could be considered as meaning Black-gulf. In HOME VI, page 435; note 24, Moria is translated as Black [Pit>] gulf .

Moria was, mostly, a very dark place and all three terms Black Pit, Gulf and Chasm, are accurate descriptions. The evill attached to moria only developed after the balrog was released.

but;
All of the above sounds nice, but in The Silmarillion (page 100) it is stated that
Greatest of all the mansions of the dwarves was Khazad-dûm...that was afterwards, in the days of its darkness called Moria

As far as I can tell, all of the early names for Moria, Hadhodrond, Dwarrowdelf ( In westron dwarrows was originally the plural of dwarf) and Kazad-dûm all roughly mean dwarf home. None of them mention blackness.all of this this would indicate that possibility #1 in Atalante-Star's choices is correctand Tolkien made a minor mistake as it wasn't called Moria until long after the dwarves had been chased off.
If the picture of the gates wasn't provided, to accompany the text, we could have assumed that Moria was just used by Gandalf as a translation of Hadhodrond but , unfortunately, the word Moria shows clearly - oops.
sari_berry
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 11:13
Knowing fully well that Tolkien would make mistakes at times, I'm more inclined to think that 'Moria' was more of a description.

It was frequently referred to as a mine, and mines are generally dark-I have yet to hear of a well-illuminated one that was authentic. So, I think that the name probably refers more to an actual characteristic of Moria-that where it really IS dark-rather than to some evil aspect of it that makes is dark *coughbalrogcough*

But, the other likely option is that it was a slip-up.

~Sara
Figwit
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: August 20, 2004 11:59
It was frequently referred to as a mine, and mines are generally dark-I have yet to hear of a well-illuminated one that was authentic. So, I think that the name probably refers more to an actual characteristic of Moria-that where it really IS dark-rather than to some evil aspect of it that makes is dark *coughbalrogcough*

But, the other likely option is that it was a slip-up.

~Sara


I'm going to go with the 'other likely option', because according to Gimli it's supposed to have been well-illuminated. What's more, the Elves too often lived underground, but never referred to their own dwellings as 'dark pits'. So... I think this was a mistake.
LadyBrooke
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: February 19, 2007 03:52
Maybe the elves were making fun of the dwarves.

If you go to http://www.ascy69.dsl.pipex.com/lotrfic/elfportraits.html , which is a Celeborn fanfiction archive, there is a story called The West Gate of... Moria?, by Redheredh. Here's the summaryWhy exactly did the dwarves write 'Moria' - the Black Pit - on the famous doors of their greatest kingdom a full Age of the world before it actually became one?
. Here's the direct link to that story http://www.ascy69.dsl.pipex.com/lotrfic/Westgate.html. Explore the rest of the site though; The stories and essays are all really good.
Elthir
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 11, 2010 05:24
But "Moria" is whats written on the door.


Not necessarily! Have you seen the door
TheOrangeblossom
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 13, 2010 03:49
I find it a good thing that even our beloved Professor was human enough to make mistakes once in a while!
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 13, 2010 05:27
I read somewhere that the Elves called it Moria, I it wasn't an affectionate name so they probably were making fun of the Dwarves, maybe they started callin it Moria after Thingol's death or something??? :dizzy:
Elthir
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 13, 2010 06:24
My question above was intended as a bit of fun, but still I'll echo the point behind it: Moria wasn't necessarily on the door itself, it could have been Hahodhrond for example.

The illustration in the book is not the actual door of course, and Moria aside for the moment, also note Durin and Narvi -- these are not only not Sindarin, but moreover they would arguably be translations in any case, thus names that should not appear in writing on the actual doors. When referring to Balin's tomb Tolkien noted...

'The actual representation of the inscription has however landed in some absurdities (...) but the names Balin and Fundin are in such a context absurd.' [but Tolkien noted this was basically] 'effective in its place: giving an idea of the style of the runes when incised with more care for a solemn purpose, and providing a glimpse of a strange tongue'

JRRT, Of Dwarves And Men


I think the illustration of the doors is also effective in its place, showing the Elvish script and design, but it need not be a representation of the actual doors in every detail, even with respect to what is written in the illustration.

I think a modern translator is involved, explaining Durin and Narvi in the illustration -- no Elves, nor Frodo, should have written these names (translations) on anything from the general time period.
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 14, 2010 07:52
hmm... very interesting, had never thought about "moria" being written on the doors.

I have kind of a related question. Actually I never noticed this either, but my father did (and for once he made a question about LoTR that I could not answer). It is written, in elvish: "Ennyn Durin Atan Moria: pedo mellon a minno." Which Gandalf finally translates as: "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Say friend and enter."

Well, my question is: what if you simply read the inscription out loud instead of translating it, as Gandalf did? You would say the word mellon now, wouldn't you? I know Gandalf says those were "happier times" and all that, but doesn't it seem too simple? Read the inscription on the door out loud and get in. Of course to read it you would have to know elvish... and I suppose orcs aren't that good at speaking it, but anyway. I just felt slightly confused by this... any thoughts?
starofdunedain
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 14, 2010 08:15
Maybe it was assumed that nobody would read the inscription aloud? And that they wouldn't think that the password would be in plain sight? But like they said, 'those were happier times' and perhaps anyone who could read the letters was thought to be friendly since it was elvish.


[Edited on 15/1/2010 by starofdunedain]
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: West Gate Moria inscription... hunh??
on: January 14, 2010 08:18
hmm... very interesting, had never thought about "moria" being written on the doors.

I have kind of a related question. Actually I never noticed this either, but my father did (and for once he made a question about LoTR that I could not answer). It is written, in elvish: "Ennyn Durin Atan Moria: pedo mellon a minno." Which Gandalf finally translates as: "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Say friend and enter."

Well, my question is: what if you simply read the inscription out loud instead of translating it, as Gandalf did? You would say the word mellon now, wouldn't you? I know Gandalf says those were "happier times" and all that, but doesn't it seem too simple? Read the inscription on the door out loud and get in. Of course to read it you would have to know elvish... and I suppose orcs aren't that good at speaking it, but anyway. I just felt slightly confused by this... any thoughts?


I had the same thought. "Really? I just need to read what's on the door and I can walk in?" Of course, in those "happier times" the doors were basically kept open with door wardens to guard them, if I understand things correctly--they really were happier times. And I don't know if I would read the inscription out loud. I suppose I might if I couldn't understand it or get the passwords to work, but I think I'd probably just scan over the instructions and try all the passwords I know. Hopefully, I'd be smart enough to get the really simple riddle.
Elthir
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on: May 16, 2017 02:57
One theory could be that the doors responded to the specific sound of mellon only, instead of part of a larger utterance when reading the fuller inscription.

Seven-ish years later!
Gandolorin
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on: May 16, 2017 04:17
What puzzles me is that, theoretically, an enemy would also be able to open the doors when the Dwarves would definitely rather keep them shut. Image

What does “A Journey In The Dark” (chapter IV of book - not volume – 2) tell us?

“The Moon now shone upon the grey face of the rock; but they could see nothing else for a while. Then slowly on the surface, where the wizard’s hands had passed, faint lines appeared, like slender veins of silver running in the stone. … [Gandalf speaking] “They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.” … “The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days [i.e. First Age],” answered Gandalf.

OK. Happier times, saying (apparently Quenya) “mellon” meaning friend does it. But besides the probability of any enemy of Moria knowing Quenya, close to nil (perhaps only Sauron himself would know it), one needs a special time of day with star- and / or moonlight, and knowledge of “words now long forgotten in Middle-earth”.

Appendix B to LoTR: In 1697 Second Age “Eregion [i.e. Hollin] laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut.” A mere 4763 years before the Fellowship of the Nine arrived at the gates. About the time that separates us from the Second Egyptian Dynasty, which precedes the Old Kingdom and is mostly legendary. The monumental pyramids of the Fourth Egyptian Dynasty (second of the Old Kingdom) are by comparison “only” between 4580 and 4550 years old.

Uh-huh. Image
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Elthir
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on: May 16, 2017 11:56
Quenya "friend" should be meldo (masculine version anyway), noting VT 49's late example from Tolkien nai elen siluva parma-restalyanna meldonya *may a star shine upon your book-fair, my friend

The Moria inscription is in Sindarin, except for the translated names, like Durin for example.
Gandolorin
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on: May 18, 2017 05:10
I’m definitely not going to argue languages with you, as they are the one aspect of JRRT’s world in which I am utterly unqualified. Image And by the Second Age, there were hardly any Quenya speakers left in M-e anyway. Or for that matter Quenya wasn’t widely spoken in the First Age either (Thingol forbade its use in Doriath after hearing of the Kin-slaying of Alqualondë, if I recall correctly).

But what does puzzle me is Gandalf’s statement “in the Elder Days”. Tyler specifically defines this as First Age, as does Foster (Schneidewind in my German lexicon, however, uses the – translated – term Eldest Days for the First Age). Sindarin is still spoken at the end of the Third Age, so why emphasize that the writing is “in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days”? Unless one would want to speculate that by the late Third Age Sindarin had become the new Quenya, the language of a (small?) minority compared to the number of Silvan Elvish speakers …
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