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strider_aragorn
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Post I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 24, 2004 09:14
Here is my question and something that makes me a little angry. In the book at the house of healing when Aragorn is going to heal Eowyn he says that her affliction started long before she killed the wraith, and then this starts the whole discussion with Gandalf explaining Grimas poisoning her mind also. Gandalf says "But who knows what she spoke tho the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her...." Then when Eowyn is healed she falls in love with Firimir and loses her desire for battle and becomes a housewife which she use to despise. So was Tolkien saying that she was healed from her discontentment, that she was healed of her desire to be more than a housewife, that she was healed of seeking to fight and be free and seek honor and be courageous in battle, and now she was healed because she no longer wanted to live a valiant life? Was he saying that it was Grima poisoning her that made her want to be more than just a "woman?" That ticks me off cuz I loved that she wanted to fight yet felt caged. I loved that she was sad because she so desperately wanted to stand up and fight, but her world had not allowed her to. This was a character and a theme that we all can relate to....wanting to be more than we are, and to think that Tolkien made that very desire, to be viewed as a poison from Grima that she needed to be healed from makes me angry. So please tell me that my interpretation is wrong.
Neneithel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 24, 2004 09:44
Relax. Your interpretation is wrong.

Eowyn was born valiant, and Tolkien certainly did not disapprove. He had a great respect for strong women. Also, she did not become a housewife, but a healer, a more challenging job than that of a fighter.

Grima's lies made her feel worthless and encouraged her in her desire to seek a warrior's death. Aragorn seemed to offer an alternative, but it was merely a crush. On realising that, and having proven herself the equal of any man and better than most, she was healed of her despair.

That's my view, anyway.
Figwit
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 24, 2004 09:27
I agree Neneithel. Strength is not just shown by wielding a blade, remember that 'the hands of the King are the hands of a healer'. Being able to mend what is broken might be more important than being able to break... I think that is the message Tolkien gives in that chapter.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 25, 2004 02:15
Think of the family and environment she grew up and lived in. She had lost her mother early; Théoden's wife had died long before she was even born; there's nothing more told about the king's older sisters than that they existed so, they probably lived somewhere else or were already dead. There was no strong female role model for Éowyn. And, in the culture of Rohan, falling in a battle was a highly appreciated way to die. In fact, the part Éowyn was planned to play - to rule the country while the king is away, and if things go bad, to defend it to the last without any hope for getting any honours for it - required a lot of strength and valour, even more than riding to the war with the men. But because she had grown up in a very masculine environment, with the men's values prevailing, she had learned to think that their way is the only heroic way. And Gríma's lies just made this feeling stronger.

When she was healed from her depression, she just realized that, there may be much to die for, but even more to live for.
orthanc5
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 25, 2004 03:23
I think she wanted to fight and die because she had nothing worth living for. Her father and mother were dead, the kingdom that she loved was being devoured through lies and deceit, and she was being stalked by the person who was causing Meduseld to be her prison. When she met Faramir, I think she saw that she had a life and freedom again.
sari_berry
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 26, 2004 08:55
I think everyone has very valid points, but I also think that Tolkien meant to show that seeing the horrors of war once is quite enough, and that even the bravest people have a hard time dealing with it - seeing friends die being a major part of that. Even the bravest, strongest, most determined person will have major issues when fighting a war, and I think that part of the reason Eowyn became a healer. She realized that war wasn't the glorious thing she had thought it was, and also learned just how precious life is - thus becoming a healer.
Andreth_Laiqualasse
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: August 29, 2004 07:11
And one more point

Tolkien also believed in true feminity, that women will not be fulfilled by trying to be like men. So Eowyn did not find peace until she relinquished the sword, and all desire to be manly. Courageous is different than manly, remember. Then she became who she was truly, "born to be", a true woman, in the fullest sense of the word.
NellasTaralom
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 01, 2004 05:35
I think you're exactly right, Andreth_Laiqualasse. There's nothing wrong with Eowyn wanting to fight and be a warrior like her brother, it was only natural for one with such a strong spirit as she. But the greatest thing a woman can be is a mother, or healer...in any case, someone who nurtures and loves. And that's what Faramir taught her, that just being a gentle, loving woman was a glorious and wonderful person to be.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 02, 2004 06:44
And one more point

Tolkien also believed in true feminity, that women will not be fulfilled by trying to be like men. So Eowyn did not find peace until she relinquished the sword, and all desire to be manly. Courageous is different than manly, remember. Then she became who she was truly, "born to be", a true woman, in the fullest sense of the word.


Thats a wonderful explanation.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 01:20
Notice that Tolkien didn't actually admire men as warriors either, but rather saw militancy as a sign of cultural decline. It comes out very clearly from what Faramir told Frodo and Sam in Ithilien:
"Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts."


[Edited on 4/9/2004 by Morwinyoniel]
Eyborg
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 02:52
Absolutely, Morwinyoniel. I mean, Tolkien is NOT telling us that "true femininity" is to be a mother and a healer, and "true masculinity" is to be a warrior and a killer. No. He is telling us that being a healer and a nurturer is much better than being a warrior. Peace is better than war. I guess we can all agree with that. And healing and nurturing is NOT restricted to women alone... I mean, wasn't Aragorn a healer? And Elrond? And just look at Sam. He was no warrior (although he was very brave), but on the contrary he was a very nurturing person. Just look at his caring for Frodo (and speaking of Frodo, he too said "I will bear a sword no longer" or something like that). And it was Sam who, after the Scouring of the Shire, healed the Shire and made it back to the beautiful garden it was before.

As for Éowyn, I think she was just realizing that war "sucked", as we would put it in modern terms. Something Faramir had known for a long time.

And one more thing: I'm so tired of this cliche that "being a true woman you must be a mother". I mean, motherhood doesn't make anyone a "true woman" any more than killing someone makes anyone a "true man". Not all women are able to be mothers, you know.

Sorry, I just had to rant a bit, he he...

[Edited on 4/9/2004 by Eyborg]
Cressida
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 05:31
I'm with Eyborg on this one.

I also don't think Eowyn was trying to be "a man." There was a place in Rohirric culture for noble women who learned the sword, even if it wasn't on the front lines where she wanted to be.

And finally, no way is a woman like her ever going to sit around tamely looking decorative and occasionally embroidering something. There will be a huge amount of healing and rebuilding to be done after the war, and she'll be out there putting her amazing energy to constructive use.

[Edited on 4/9/2004 by Cressida]
anything_but_ordinary
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 07:28
I think no matter if you're male or female, once you see war, you realize that it lacks in glory, excitement, etc., and you realize that war is awful, and that after haveing that experience, you don't feel a need to repeat it. I think Eowyn realized this, and realized that she'd be more satisfied sparring, reading/writing, having a family, but still of course staying strong. What good is it to kill, if you do not bring new life into the world? I think Eowyn realized that, and wanted to be more than a warrioress, and kill. She wanted to bring new life, and bring around reform and change.
Andreth_Laiqualasse
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 09:05
Have any of you read Tolkien's letters? I recently read one or two in which he reflected about men and woman and their relations to each other. Tolkien himself believed that men and women have unique roles, and are spiritually, as well as physically quite different.

I know that he wasn't saying that all women should be mothers, in the usual sense of the word, but I still think that it wasn't only war that Eowyn was turned off of, but also her desire to be like the men.

Not all women are or can be physical mothers, but all can at least be one spiritually; it is part of a woman's nature to nurture and care for others.
Eyborg
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 09:16
Okay, so Tolkien might have had these opinions about men and women (and I'm not at all surprised if he did, being of his generation), but that doesn't mean that I necessarily have to agree with him about that. Although I respect his opinion, if this is how he felt.
By the way, I can't see anywhere in LOTR that Éowyn had no desire to be a mother. I think her problem mainly was a) she wanted to die because she had no hope anymore for her country, and b) she loved the wrong man (or she thought she loved him). Motherhood has nothing to do with this. And I don't think Éowyn wanted to be "like a man".
Again, I don't believe that it's only women's role to be nurturing and caring. Like I said, Sam is a good example.
Nurturing and caring is the human thing to be.

[Edited on 4/9/2004 by Eyborg]
strider_aragorn
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 04, 2004 07:06
All good points, but we are getting off the subject. What exactly was the result of Grima's poisoning Eowyn's mind. How did he poison her? After thinking about this for awhile I think that maybe it was just that his poison was not neccessarily making her want to win honor in battle, because I think that was just a part of her character. I think his poison was giving her a lack of hope. Because though Aragorn could heal her wound from the nazgul he could not heal the lack of hope and her want to die. At first I thought that the wound Aragorn refered to that he could not heal was her desire for honor and to show valor in battle.....but I think it is more accurate that he praised and admired that part of her, but the poison of Grima, which he could not heal, was her lack of hope. Make sense?
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 05, 2004 07:12
Okay, so Tolkien might have had these opinions about men and women (and I'm not at all surprised if he did, being of his generation), but that doesn't mean that I necessarily have to agree with him about that. Although I respect his opinion, if this is how he felt.


Well, I think his opinion is "important" seeing that we are trying to understand "his" characters from what he conveys....its not "our" characters....

Someone mentioned about Faramir's discussion with Frodo and Sam in TTT, that is exactly what I got from Tolkien via Faramir, as well. We see his thoughts about men of war and men of skill. The tone is filled with remorse for what Gondor could have accomplished had it not been perpetually threatened with war.

I agree with Andreth too....I think women are naturally a nurturing kind regardless of the physical ability to be a mother.
NellasTaralom
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 05, 2004 09:31
Well, I think his opinion is "important" seeing that we are trying to understand "his" characters from what he conveys....its not "our" characters....


I agree with you, Celebrianna! Both you and Andreth are right about all this as far as I'm concerned!

What exactly was the result of Grima's poisoning Eowyn's mind. How did he poison her?


Well, I don't know about you, but being stuck in the same hall with Grima all day everyday would be enough to make me wanna die in battle...
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 12:23
just a little humble thought....what made me understand a little bit more Eowyn's character (even tho i still havent got that fully i guess...i dont know!)is when facing the Witch King of Angmar she says "I AM NO MAN"....from this little sentence i thought that with this she means to say Ok, i want/wanted to fight and die in battle but not like a man or cos i feel like a man or i wished i was borned man but Im a woman and i can do this even if i am no man....but this is just my thought...but you know seeing also in the film(sorry i know this is a book thread but ...) the look in her eyes made me think of that in this way...

and also i think that reading Faramir's speeches is just like reading Tolkien's speeches and ideas cos he has always said that not only was Faramir his favourite character but also the one he related to so i think he made Faramir speak his own words...

aw NellasTaralom i think i can agree with you on the last point!
Figwit
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 02:40
I just wanted to comment on the whole 'motherhood' thing. And I'm going to go seriously off-topic while doing it , but I find this point relevant in light of Tolkien's view of women. So atalante, Pb - if you think I'm going overboard, feel free to delete this post.

I mean, motherhood doesn't make anyone a "true woman" any more than killing someone makes anyone a "true man". Not all women are able to be mothers, you know.


That's not really the point - all women are potential mothers. It is one of the few factual differences between men and women, one of the few differences that were not created by society but lie in our biological nature itself.

The strong affiliation between women and motherhood is a very natural one, and it is sadly overlooked in many modern interpretations. The fact that Éowyn turns from a warrior to a healer doesn't have to have anything to do with masculinity or femininity, but the fact that Tolkien represents women as mothers or potential mothers, does.
Just take a look throughout Tolkien's oeuvre at how he sees women: mostly as mothers. Not solely, but at the heart of womanhood lies motherhood.

The reason why I'm making a point out of this, is because many people overlook the strong connotations of motherhood: not just care and kindness, but also creation - women are more like to gods than men, because they give birth. And not, like the Greeks believed, like soil that has been planted by a man, but as a very active, building, decisive factor. A woman is an artist, from the very second she was born.

As for not all women being able to be a mother, that is again not true. I've never encountered any woman who never in her life felt the 'call of nature', the need for a child. It is a deep biological need, which makes women suddenly notice children, which makes them go out for a guy... Just look around you, most women in their thirties have felt it. They may have chosen not to, or they may not be good mothers - but every woman is a mother.

There is no shame at all in defining a woman as a potential mother. Every man is a potential father. Look at how both women and men react when they find out they cannot have children - they are devestated.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Tolkien had some traditional views, and nowadays we seem to be afraid of tradition, as if it's a very bad thing and we have to lose it as fast as we can. And some traditional views are wrong: that man are better or smarter than women, that coloured people are necessarily more primitive, that the earth is the centre of the universe.
However, we shouldn't throw away everything just because we don't want to keep a few items. Young women these days are too busy being men. That worries me. They see Éowyn as a feminist, and Arwen as 'a spoiled princess who sits and waits'. The first is stronger than the second, simply because she picks up a sword. This idea (which in my opinion is a serious misconception) has no place in Tolkien - it doesn't exist there. Strength is not something which is measured by the amount of killing one does, as is shown in various places, not for men and not for women.

I hope the point was clear .
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 04:45
*claps to Figwit*...great, excellent points!!
Figwit
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 04:52
:blush: Thanks
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 05:27
I love you analysis Figwit...and you are so correct. From my experience I have seen many career women (Investment Analysts), who when they are in their late twenties they are ready to settle down and have families. And even more shocking to me is that after having the first child, many are tempted to stay at home and do stay at home. These are women who are educated professionals who somehow realizes that their children are more important. Luckily, a lot of corporations are beginning to give flexible hours to cater to these career women/mothers. And in that essense, I see that some tradition still remains and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

But most of all, I cannot understand how we can disregard Tolkien's views on women when trying to interpret his characters.
Andreth_Laiqualasse
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 06, 2004 09:38
For once, I agree wholeheartedly with Figwit. Wonderful! I haven't the way with words with which the great Figwit is endowed; thanks for the lucid thinking! (as some of you may have guessed, I am so NOT a feminist, at least in the modern sense)
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 07, 2004 12:42
Good post, Figwit. Basically, we are still very much the same as our caveman ancestors some tens of thousands of years ago; biological evolution is very slow compared to cultural evolution and development of technology.

When reading the LOTR, we must remember that, men and women of Tolkien's generation almost lived in two different worlds. The limits for what was regarded suitable or even possible for either sex were much stricter than in our world, and the status of women was even restricted by law. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that, still in the early years of the 20th century, the British law said something like "the husband and the wife are one, and the husband is the one".)

Éowyn's problems were related to a similar situation: She was a very strong and capable young woman, but she never had an opportunity to show it. She was confined to taking care of her ailing uncle who, even when healed by Gandalf, didn't seem to fully understand her abilities; remember, it was Háma who suggested her as the vice-regent while Théoden and Éomer were at war. And, being harassed by Wormtongue sure didn't make her situation easier. No wonder she felt worthless and depressed, and when she further mistook her crush for Aragorn for unrequited love, those feelings grew stronger, and led her to seek for the only thing she felt had any worth - a heroic death on battlefield.

She proved her valour and capability, and finally with Faramir's help she understood that, it's much harder to fix something that is broken than to break something. And, I should think that, the job description for Princess of Ithilien was actually quite versatile.

Today, we have female presidents, top scientists, and space shuttle flight commanders; something like that would have been regarded downright impossible only some tens of years ago. And, notice that, many of these women in top positions also have a family. I see women like this as the Éowyns of our time: they're fully competent even in masculine professions, yet have (mostly) not become like men. On the other hand, there are male obstetrics nurses and kindergarten teachers, or homemaker fathers; more choices are available now for both men and women.

Hope this isn't regarded too much off topic:
Andreth_Laiqualasse: as some of you may have guessed, I am so NOT a feminist, at least in the modern sense

I very much AM a feminist - yet, I've never hated men, or wanted to be like a man (I believe that's what you mean by "femininsm in the modern sense"); I just don't think men are any better or more capable than I am just because they're men. I'm also a mother and happy about it; it just isn't the only thing I feel I'm for in this world.

But, any further elaboration of the matter would require a thread of its own in the Pony.
Figwit
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: September 07, 2004 02:04
I just want to echo that last statement Morwinyoniel: I have felt for a long time that feminism had accomplished almost what it could accomplish, in our western world. After I took a class on gender studies I realised this was not true. I am not a feminist in the sense that I would protest against posters or adds with hardly clad women or that I would find it unnatural for a woman to want to stay at home for her children - my mother did, and I really believe that for a child it is very important to have one of the parents always at hand. So I'm very old-fashioned in some ways.
But on the other hand the reduction of women to men also bugs me, and I've grown more sensitive to gender distinctions, and the way men and women are portrayed or viewed.

In that light, I think Tolkien has a lot of respect for his women, and more than some authors of his own time. Yes, he's a bit old-fashioned, but then again he only lived in his own age.
NeurielAdonneniel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: April 10, 2009 04:43
I always thought of Eowyn as a tomboy, and some, if not most, tomboys kind of become more gentle later on...if you know what I mean.

~NeurielAdonneniel
cirdaneth
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: April 10, 2009 08:44
Oh yeah?!

(Cirdaneth (66) guns her Kawasaki down the highway to Tharbad.) :evil:
NeurielAdonneniel
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: April 10, 2009 08:52
I only said "some, if not most"; not all.

~NeurielAdonneniel
cirdaneth
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: April 10, 2009 11:31
's okay, Neuriel. I was striking a blow for free Grannydom! I don't have a bike because at my age bits of me might break if I fell off.

... so back to Eowyn ...

... she is the only woman of the Rohirrim that we see in action so we don't know what was "normal" for the young and unmarried. We can guess though. The term shield-maiden can't have been coined solely for her, and I suspect that girls were taught sword and shield skills, just as women today learn self-defence, and pioneer women learned to shoot. There was nothing unfeminine about it, just the nitty-gritty of life.

I wonder if pepper-spray works on orcs! Think I may have seen a few around my village.

olorinlorien
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Post RE: I'm mad at Tolkien because of Eowyn grrrr
on: April 13, 2009 07:04
I wonder if pepper-spray works on orcs! Think I may have seen a few around my village.


I was going to have a bumper sticker made: "Too many Orcs. Not enough Elves."
cirdaneth
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