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Figwit
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Post 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: August 30, 2004 10:20
These chapters deal with the Appendix A (v) The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in relation to 6.V. The Steward and the King. Please answer the questions in that light, and don't mention the movie !

1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?

2) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree as a 'sign'? How is Aragorn's marriage to Arwen 'the end'?

3) What new insight does the story in the Appendix bring you where LOTR is concerned?

A question added by Lady_Tolwen, and one I find very interesting as well: Why was Arwen attracted to Aragorn? And why did Aragorn love Arwen?

[Edited on 2/9/2004 by Figwit]

[Edited on 2/9/2004 by Figwit]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: August 31, 2004 06:01
1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?

Sure I did. I read Aragorn's and Arwen's relationship "between the lines" already when she was first introduced in The Council of Elrond, and she was there in the background all the time. Actually, I wondered when I read The Two Towers if I've understood everything wrong though, and Aragorn is going to fall for Éowyn... Their story in the Appendix A made me really understand the depth of their love.

2) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree as a 'sign'? How is Aragorn's marriage to Arwen 'the end'?

For Aragorn, the sapling was a sign that his heart's desire will be fulfilled: he will get the woman he loves, they will have an heir, and his realm will remain after him. In general, the sapling is the symbol of a new era which has been coming for some time already, and is now really beginning.
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: August 31, 2004 11:39
1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?


Honestly, I don't remember I do remember at one point, after reading the books for three or four years already, reading the Appendixes for the first time and finally understanding what their story was about, what Aragorn's story was about really. Until that moment she was a very insignifcant character, and I had the same experience in TTT as Morwinyoniel - I didn't get all the Éowyn-stuff, or why Aragorn wouldn't have her...

3) What new insight does the story in the [i]Appendix bring you where LOTR is concerned?
[/i]


For me, Arwen brings a new depth to Aragorn: suddenly I understood his drive and his melancholly, and I got a lot more sympathy for him now. Before I read their tale he seemed a bit... powermad? But reading about Arwen and their love, and her strength...

There are more things, but I'm going to keep those for later, cause I'm really tired now.

Hareth
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 03, 2004 01:14
1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?

Yes, I remembered Arwen.

2) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree as a 'sign'? How is Aragorn's marriage to Arwen 'the end'?

If the sapling of the White Tree was of the line of the great Telperion from Valinor, protected and brought to Middle Earth from Aragorn’s Numenorean descendants, then it symbolizes a restoration of a line that was almost lost, like Isildor’s line itself. The life of the sapling symbolizes the life of the Kings of Men. It is a “sign” that Aragorn and Arwen are to wed. Elrond states: “Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life’s grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.”

3) What new insight does the story in the Appendix bring you where LOTR is concerned?

When Lord Elrond calls Aragorn (who is “Estel” or “Hope”) “a yearling shoot,” the connection between Aragorn and the White Tree is confirmed in my mind. Both are a symbol of hope (“Estel”) and rebirth.

The Appendix hints at just how long Middle Earth had prepared and waited for the “return of the King,” foreshadowed by Ivorwen (speaking of Aragon’s parents): “If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts.” The Appendix reveals the sacrifices of Elrond and Arwen, only foreshadowed previously, as well as the sacrifice of Aragorn, who gives back his life to the One to restore honor and grace to his people. Elrond speaks to this point: “Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored.” And, Aragorn, at the time of his passing, says: “…I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift.” The majesty of Aragorn is confirmed after his death in the words: “And long there he lay, an image of the splendor of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.”

The Appendix harkens back, considerably, to the First Age, and we get glimpses of the events that led up to and climax in the Third Age. (I’m thinking of references to the heirlooms of the Heir of Isildor; Luthien, Beren and Thingol, the diminishing of the race of Men.) The Appendix also hints at Aragorn’s travels before he meets the Fellowship and his earlier friendship with Gandalf and meeting of Galadriel. Sadly, the Appendix also details the last bitter days of Arwen, previously alluded to.
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 03, 2004 09:10
The Appendix hints at just how long Middle Earth had prepared and waited for the “return of the King,”


I must echo most of your sentiments Hareth, excellent post. What struck me most about what you said is the line I quoted.
I remember when I read the books the first couple of times that I didn't understand the sudden importance of Aragorn halfway Book 3... it was like: yeah, yeah, the King is back, who cares? It wasn't until I read the Appendixes that I understood that LOTR isn't just about the Fellowship and Frodo and the Ring, but about two stories: Frodo's story, and Aragorn's story. And that the return of the King is equally important as the destruction of the Ring.
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 05, 2004 11:22

1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?


Yes, I did. Just like Morwinyoniel, I read the relationship beween Aragorn and Elrond's daughter between the lines when I first met Arwen in Rivendell. However, if I remember my experience of reading Lord of the Rings for the very first time correctly, I wasn't that confused by Aragorn's "relationship" with Éowyn in TTT. I think I picked up all the clues that hinted at the bond between him and Arwen: the ballad of Beren and Lúthien, which tells us something about Elrond's family even before we reach Rivendell, Arwen's cameo during the feast, which reveals her beauty, wisdom and grace, the fact that she talks to Aragorn, Bilbo's allusion to Arwen, the Elfstone he receives at the gift-giving in Lothlórien, the fact that he refuses Éowyn, the banner Arwen sends to him -- so I wasn't that surprised when she turned up to get married.


3) What new insight does the story in the Appendix bring you where LOTR is concerned?


I can only emphasize the points Figwit and Hareth have already made: It offers you more material to characterize Aragorn, to give more depth to his portrait and very clear motivations for his deeds, more background for Arwen, and more emotions and poignancy in general. Moreover, this appendix also makes the importance of the Return of the King for Middle-earth very clear: When Lord Elrond calls Aragorn (who is "Estel” or "Hope") "a yearling shoot," the connection between Aragorn and the White Tree is confirmed in my mind. Both are a symbol of hope ("Estel") and rebirth. I like this elaboration on your argument in the The Steward and the King thread very much, Hareth!


Why was Arwen attracted to Aragorn? And why did Aragorn love Arwen?


Good question, no answer. I was able to come up with an explanation for Éowyn's attraction to Faramir, but this love story is still puzzling me... At first, Arwen doesn't seem to take Aragorn quite seriously (after all, despite his valour and his good qualities), he is only a twenty-year-old mortal boy, bragging about his lineage in order to impress a pretty girl... ), but she apparently senses the possibility of a deeper connection between the two of them in the future because she makes an allusion to her fate's being perhaps similar to Lúthien's. However, when she sees him again as a mature man, she immediately recognizes his merits, maybe due to her gift of elvish insight. And that apparenty suffices. As for Aragorn, I honestly don't know what to make of his attraction to Arwen. But more men have obviously fallen for the sight of a charming girl.




[Edited on 6/9/2004 by Aervir]
Hareth
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 06, 2004 08:46
Why was Arwen attracted to Aragorn? And, why did Aragorn love Arwen? How is Aragorn’s marriage to Arwen “the end”?

There appear to be greater forces at work when it comes to the connection between Aragorn and Arwen. As with other matters concerning the Eldar, including Arwen, the circles and cycles of the earth influence events.

From their first meeting, both Arwen and Aragorn seem to know (Aragorn is singing the Lay of Luthien and Arwen reveals that she is often compared to Luthien) that they are destined to Beren and Luthien’s fate and to each other. Arwen was attracted to Aragorn because she, with the foresight of her father’s people, saw Aragorn’s important role in the events of Middle Earth in the Third Age, as well as her own role. As she makes her mortal choice, Arwen is compared to a “white tree,” her link to Aragorn's destiny: “And she stood then as still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said, ‘I will cleave to you, Dunadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin.’ She loved her father dearly.” Aragorn’s love for Arwen is “love at first sight.” He seems to know that he is fated to the same path as Beren and falls in love with Arwen instantaneously as he sees "...the elven-light in her eyes and the wisdom of many days...".

Lord Elrond, as well as Arwen and Aragorn, seems to be destined to correct some of the mistakes of the past (I’m thinking, in particular of Thingol with Luthien and Beren) and brings closure (or “the end”) to the Third Age. Elrond’s love for both Arwen and Aragorn cannot be understated — his willingness to finally give his blessing to Arwen and Aragorn (after his initial opposition to the pairing, knowing the sacrifices it would entail) is something that Thingol could not do. Aragorn’s giving back of the gift of life at his chosen time of death bring events from earlier ages (culminating in the fall of Numenor) “full circle” and provide redemption.
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 06, 2004 09:01
Oh that's an interesting one!Ii have to chime in despite being silent most of the time...
I can't remember reading the Steward and the King the first time around, that was after all 18 years ago! But I remember being very touched by this impossible love (the romantic teenager I was could relate to that).
What I can say is that while re-reading it in 98, I was much more touched be the story of the white tree, it became one of my favourite parts of the books, it's amazing that feeling that hope is such a fragile thing but it survives through many ordeals.

And of course this is one of my favourite chapters anyway, since I really like the character of Ioreth (but that's pretty obvious?)
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: September 06, 2004 10:03
1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?

Yes, I did remember Arwen. There are so few female characters in Lord of the Rings that when I came across one I paid attention. Arwen particularly stood out because Tolkien gives a rather detailed description of her in The Council of Elrond . And who else could have been, the Lady of Rivendell, in The Passing of the Grey Company?

2) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree as a 'sign'?
For Aragorn, the sapling was a sign that his heart's desire will be fulfilled: he will get the woman he loves, they will have an heir, and his realm will remain after him. ~ Morwinyoniel
When Lord Elrond calls Aragorn (who is “Estel” or “Hope”) “a yearling shoot,” the connection between Aragorn and the White Tree is confirmed in my mind. Both are a symbol of hope (“Estel”) and rebirth. ~ Hareth

I wholeheartedly agree with all of you concerning the White Tree. I like Tolkien’s reference to a white tree when Aragorn and Arwen pledge themselves to each other.
“And she stood then, as still as a white tree, looking into the west…”
I didn't get all the Éowyn-stuff, or why Aragorn wouldn't have her... ~ Figwit
At first I thought there might be a chance of Aragorn and Éowyn developing a loving relationship but it did not last long. Aragorn was far too preoccupied with his goals and responsibilities to consider a relationship with a woman (even if Arwen was nonexistent). And he was far too insightful to be fooled by her apparent love for him.

How is Aragorn's marriage to Arwen 'the end'?

IMHO, Aragorn and Arwen’s marriage is or symbolizes ‘the end’ of:

~ Aragorn’s exile and wandering
~ The long wait to proclaim and consummate their love openly
~ The Third Age
~ The Eldar Kindred who will fade or depart
~ The Fellowship of the Ring
~ Gandalf’s work

3) What new insight does the story in the Appendix bring you where LOTR is concerned?

Great answers everyone! I know this isn’t new but, to me, Aragorn and Arwen’s story reinforces the importance of fealty in Middle Earth. It gives insight into Aragorn’s early days and why he has always seemed to have an air of melancholy about him. This is a love story that stands the test of time.

I got the impression that Aragorn’s mother, Gilraen, wed Arathorn not out of love but because she was commanded to do so.
"I gave Hope to the Dúnedain, I have kept no hope for myself.”
IMHO, It sounds like she has felt this way from the time of Aragorn’s birth. It’s as if she had no say in her own life - that fate was her master.

The insight that strikes me the most is that Tolkien’s characters have stories of their own just as each one of us has one of our own. Lord of the Rings is but a short chapter in the character’s lives.

Why was Arwen attracted to Aragorn? And why did Aragorn love Arwen?

That is a good question Lady_Tolwen . Both of your answers make sense to me Aervir and Hareth . I really can’t seem to come up with any profound answers myself. I like the idea of “love at first sight” for Aragorn. Also Arwen, to him, would seem very much like “the forbidden fruit” and that in itself can be a highly motivating factor. Aragorn’s love for Elrond would drive Aragorn to prove himself worthy of Arwen in her father’s eyes.

Arwen fell in love with Aragorn at the first sight of him in the full bloom of manhood. She most likely used her elven gift of insight to look into his heart. In any case, there was a powerful physical attraction between the two.
And of course this is one of my favourite chapters anyway, since I really like the character of Ioreth (but that's pretty obvious?) ~ Ioreth_Fimbrethil


I like Ioreth too. She’s so real.

[Edited on 7/9/2004 by RubySandybanks]
arwen_the_evenstar
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: February 21, 2005 09:19
1) Did you remember who Arwen was when you first read The Steward and the King?

To be perfectly honest...no I didn't. I read ROTK twice until I could sort of understand it. My memory of it is still very vague. You see I had read the previous books but nothing really clearly states that Arwen and Aragorn love each other. You have to 'read between the lines'. This is something which I did not do. Only when I saw the movies I was like: Oh I didn't know Arwen and Aragorn loved each other that much. I didn't understand it. But unsure if the movie was true to the book in this matter I decided to read the appendices and found out that indeed their love was strong. This is one of the (very few!) ways in which the movies have helped me to understand the story better.

Why was Arwen attracted to Aragorn?

I think the reason Arwen was attracted to Aragorn was because she looked past the ranger (or whatever he was!) and saw him in the kind, generous, brave, loving, warm-hearted Man that was there. I don't recall her knowing that Aragorn was the rightful King of Gondor so she definitely wasn't after his power or money!
(I would have been so shocked if she was! )

And why did Aragorn love Arwen?

The reason Aragorn loved Arwen, I personally don't think there's a limited right answer. He loved her for many reasons, I think. He saw that she was indeed like Luthien. He knew that she was beautiful and kind and wiser and fairer than most beings to ever walk upon Middle Earth. To be honest I am not really completely sure if there's a right answer but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong!
Adaria
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King: The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
on: May 28, 2007 06:37
I do not think that someone can find an answer to this question about love. I don't think that Tolkien knew it himself.There is no simple answer to that.
We love someone just because. Period.To give a reasonable explanation seems impossible.Such is the nature of love...
Sorry if I sound not very smart.Hopefully you'll understand what I mean.
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