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Figwit
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Post The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: September 27, 2004 01:20
Tolkien's work was inspired by many books, mythologies, philosophies, as well as his own experiences in life. In this thread, we'd like to gather all links and resemblances we think of when reading The Silmarillion.

When posting, please always refer clearly to:
- the event / character / place you'd like to talk about
- the chapter where this event / character / place is most clearly described
- the book / tradition / myth / ... you'd like to mention as a source
For instance: The first lines of Ainulindale where Eru is described, remind a lot of the depiction of God in the bible.

When you react on what something else writes, please always quote the lines you're reacting to. Don't quote the entire post, but don't just say 'I don't think that's true, Figwit.'

If you got the idea you're suggesting from somewhere else, please name your source, and link to it if possible. For instance: 'I read an article by atalante_star about Fëanor (which you can find here) and she says...'

[Edited on 27/9/2004 by Figwit]
Náredhil
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 01, 2004 12:26
The Ainulindalë has a remarkably resemblance to the events described the Genesis chapter of the bible

*the creation of earth
*one sole creator (Ilúvatar/God) "The one"
*A perfect utopia till marred by corruption (Eden/Almaren)
*One god working with sub-gods (God and Angels/Ilúvatar and Ainur/Maiar)
*One angel/sub-god gets jealous of power and resists the creator to become his own powerful creator (Satan/Melkor)
*The fallen god/fallen angel creates his own creation because he was jealous of Gods creation (Demons/Orcs)

Also the "The Darkening of Valinor" where Morgoth stabs the side of one of the trees until sap pours forth from its roots (the heart of the tree), This chapter remind me when Jesus died on the cross, one of Pilate's soldiers stabs the side of Jesus on the cross with a speak until blood pours forth from his wound (his heart).

here also is some information about the writing of the Silmarillion that i got from the site titled, the book of westmarch click here

It was in 1917, during the madness of WW1, that Tolkien started writing the backbone of the Silmarillion. When he was stationed in France, the ordering of his imagination developed into the Book of Lost Tales, in which most of the major stories of the Silmarillion appear in their first form: tales of the Elves and the "Gnomes", (i. e. Deep Elves, the later Noldor), with their languages Qenya and Goldogrin. Here are found the first recorded versions of the wars against Morgoth, the siege and fall of Gondolin and Nargothrond, and the tales of Túrin and of Beren and Lúthien. He called the collection of myths "The Legendarium".

While recovering from the wounds of WW1, it was when he was stationed at Hull that he and Edith went walking in the woods at nearby Roos. There in a grove thick with hemlock Edith Bratt, his wife, danced for him. This was the inspiration for the tale of Beren and Lúthien, a recurrent theme in his "Legendarium". He came to think of Edith as "Lúthien" and himself as "Beren".(1)


*there's plenty more i wish to share concerning biblical events and such but i must go now, i'll be back*


edited by Figwit to remove a spoiler

[Edited on 2/10/2004 by Figwit]
Nauma
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 01, 2004 05:30
Sorry, but I have to pick some nits...

*One god working with sub-gods (God and Angels/Ilúvatar and Ainur/Maiar)
This is not biblical. Genesis says nothing about the involvement of angels. That said, there is an obvious parallel between the Ainur and angels, and between God and Eru.

*The fallen god/fallen angel creates his own creation because he was jealous of Gods creation (Demons/Orcs)
As I have understood it, demons in the Christian tradition were not made by Satan; they were originally good angels themselves, and are more like recruits in Satan's army. As for what little of the history of the orcs I've gleaned, weren't orcs Elves, Men, and various beasts that were tormented into orkishness? Again, not true creation. I seem to see this as a theme of Tolkien's: bad things are not bad by nature, because everything in the universe was originally good. And when good things become bad, we lament it, and even when the bad guy dies, we can still feel a little shred of pity for him. It was that way in LotR, anyway.


On the other hand, it's obvious that Tolkien's Christianity played a large role in the kind of stories that appealed to him, so your point is a good one, Náredhil.

And here I go, exposing my geekiness to the world again. O. Sharpe posted this neat little tidbit tying the Ainulindalë to, of all things, quantum physics. You may think it's dorky, but I thought it was awesome.

[Edited on 10/2/04 by Nauma]

[Edited on 2/10/2004 by Figwit]
Náredhil
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 01, 2004 06:03

*One god working with sub-gods (God and Angels/Ilúvatar and Ainur/Maiar)

This is not biblical. Genesis says nothing about the involvement of angels. That said, there is an obvious parallel between the Ainur and angels, and between God and Eru.


thanks for the correction. When i stated this, i didn't necesarrily restrict it to just Genesis, i meant this to be an observation of my biblical belief in a whole.

*The fallen god/fallen angel creates his own creation because he was jealous of Gods creation (Demons/Orcs)


As I have understood it, demons in the Christian tradition were not made by Satan; they were originally good angels themselves, and are more like recruits in Satan's army.


ooh, very nice point, but i think another thing to what you said about good angels becoming bad, i think that could possibly tie in Sauron to Melkor. Sauron followed the Vala Aulë but Melkor corrupted him to his service (good->bad), just another crazy piece of my thoughts, lol, ignore them if you must.

*thanks for the compliments Nauma and i think your quantum physics link was interesting, thanks for offering that to us! *

[Edited on 10/2/2004 by Náredhil]

[Edited on 2/10/2004 by Figwit]
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 01, 2004 09:45
Guys, do you think we could leave this discussion until the appropriate time, rather than just talking about it randomly now and nitpicking? I promise that we will cover this topic in detail ....
Figwit
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 01:21
Those are some very good points already. And I'm going to add to the nitpicking (sorry atalante ).

I think Náredhil is halfway correct when she names
*One angel/sub-god gets jealous of power and resists the creator to become his own powerful creator (Satan/Melkor)
as a parallel.

Melkor does seem to think that he can become a powerful creator countering his own creator: he raises a 'new' theme to counter the theme of Ilúvatar.
Without getting into the theological knots: Lucifer's fall is also a result of his wanting to create somethin new. But both Melkor and Lucifer discover that they cannot create, only corrupt what has already been made.
So Melkor corrupts the heart of the Maiar that follow him, but also the gift of Music - and Lucifer corrupts the hearts of the angels that rise with him against God.

I think the parallel holds if you realise that in both creation myths, only one (God/Eru) has the power to 'bring into being'. (Mark that Ilúvatar says Eä! - Let it be...)

But I think that more specific discussion on Melkor and the nature of good and evil should go into the first Master in Mythology thread

But very good points, both of you.
Náredhil
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 04:18
I think Náredhil is halfway correct when she names


well, actually it should be "when he names", i'm a guy, lol

*sorry about getting so head-first into topic atalante, maybe we should hold off until the proper time, very nice ideas by the way Figwit! *
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 05:28
Don't worry, I prrrrrrromise we will get into this very soon - its just best to do when everyone is in the same place and can join into the discussion happily
sindarinelvish
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 07:59
Sorry, Atlante, I have to jump in too,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*One angel/sub-god gets jealous of power and resists the creator to become his own powerful creator (Satan/Melkor)
______________________________________________

Reading "Ainulindale" among the things everyone has said, reminded me of Milton's Paradise Lost, which of course Prof. Tolkien would have been intimately acquainted with. There Lucifer is good but because of the lure of power, feels like he should also be judged worthy by God, ultimately as worthy as God.

The language is much like the poetical style of Paradise Lost also though it's been several, several years (thank you, Dr. Frantz) since I've read it.

[Edited on 2/10/2004 by sindarinelvish]
SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 01:01
There Lucifer is good but because of the lure of power, feels like he should also be judged worthy by God, ultimately as worthy as God.

I don't think I agree with you there, but I am going to leave the reasons why until we are all talking about the Ainulindale.
Figwit
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: October 02, 2004 11:33
I like the Paradise Lost-reference though, I never thought of it before but... I'll need to re-read my Milton
Hokeysmoke
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: November 30, 2004 09:53
I'm finding this discussion so educational and I love it because there have been some biblical themes central in the silmarillion that I've always appreiated and now I've a place to discuss them!

That being said I can't wait until we can get deeper into thebMelkor/Lucifewr connection as I've some interesting theories on that-But for now, I'd like to discuss another biblical similarity:

OK in the Old Testament Book of Ruth we come aware of the fact that in Ruth 4:16-22 we learn that Ruth, a Moabitess becomes the mother of Obed, who becomes the father of Jesse who is the father of David, who becomes King of Israel.

If we then go the the New Testament ( Yeah I used to be something of a biblical scholar-geek) you will see in Matthew 1:12-16 that both Mary and Joseph are of the house of David-Or LINEAGE if you prefer. It is of course through Mary that Jesus is norn.

Now, you're asking what's that got to do with Tolkein? Well, we all know the good Prof was a devote Christian and did take quite a bit of inspiration from the bible.

The paralell in this case is to do with{I'm putting in a spoiler alert in case there are folks who are not as up on The Silmarillion] the bloodlines of Aragorn and Arwen. If you check the family tree section at the back of TS you'll see that Elwe the Maia weds the Elf Thingol, they become the parents of Luthien who weds Beren andheir son Dior weds Nimloth-Sister of Celeborn, husband of Galadriel. Nimloth and Dior have Elwing who weds Earendil who of ourse is the father of Elrond and Elros. Elrond is the father of Arwen and of course we all know that Aragorn is a direct descendant of Elros-It should also be noted that Galadriel is a descendant of none other than Olwe, Brother of Elwe. thus a cirlce is completed and Aragorn and Arwen in themselves represent not only the sacred (Maia-Elves) and the profane (men) but also the point of which those two lines are rejoined to completion in Eldarion[end spoiler-so hope I'm getting this right]

I have another theory that corresponds Eowyn's defeat of the With King and the Old Testament Book of Judges, but I gotta run.

Namarie all.
Figwit
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: November 30, 2004 10:00
Oh, I like the parallel with Ruth. I never noticed it... Good thinking. I don't think it was deliberate, though one never knows... Very interesting!
Aelgas
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: November 30, 2004 03:52
Suffering from verbal diarrhoea tonight, so...

this is less in challenge than in curiousity since I am by no means any kind of Bible scholar, but is there any event in the Bible where one outside the Realm of Eä, i.e. an angelic power, is conjoined with one within it, i.e. one of this Creation?

Is Tolkien dilberately side-stepping or extending the Christian or Apocryphal mythos here?
Hokeysmoke
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: November 30, 2004 05:38
Good question! Had to go through my concordance just to make sure I got this one correct.

Turn with me Children to the Old Testament book of Genesis chapter 6 verse 5:

The Nephimlim were on the earth in those days-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children with thme. They were the heroes of old, men of reknown.

Now, Tolkein being a far more capable scholar than myself would have been very much aware of this verse. Though it is a little vague in regards to exactly WHO those heroes and men of reknown it can be concluded that perhaps in this verse we can draw a paralell between scriptural writings and the myths of those day-Think Hercules/Heracles, Gilgamesh, Atlas etc.
You can also if you chosse extend the meaning to coincide perhaps with the Numernoeans

For more info on the Nephilim I'd suggest you look into the more "apochryphal" books of the bible.

I hope that helps and did bot take us too far off target-Sorry Atalante, next time I talk to a certain Mr. Praed I'll say howdy for you okay?
Crownless
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: December 10, 2004 08:17
very interesting
Figwit
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: May 27, 2005 03:17
I'm reading a book on Germanic mythology, and I came amongst an entry about the Brisganen, a necklace forged by four dwarf-brothers, that was bought by the goddess Freyja for a peculiar price (her body). You can read something about it here and here (both articles differ, because obviously there are different versions of the story).

It reminded me a lot of the Nauglamír, though of course any comparison is bound to be incomplete and incorrect at points. This is the first story I read about a necklace, though, so I was wondering if anyone else knows any other stories about a necklace that could be associated with it.
lanelas
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: September 19, 2005 06:12
Germanic/Norse mythology is awesome. Dover books has a 4-volume set called "Teutonic Mythology", compiled by Jacob Grimm. I would love to get it, but it's over $100 and I just don't have that much dough.
Btw, I like your "coexist" thing. I am a follower of Jesus, so I believe in what he taught - peace.
Darry85
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: June 04, 2008 04:26
Germanic/Norse mythology is awesome. Dover books has a 4-volume set called "Teutonic Mythology", compiled by Jacob Grimm. I would love to get it, but it's over $100 and I just don't have that much dough.
Btw, I like your "coexist" thing. I am a follower of Jesus, so I believe in what he taught - peace.

That doesn't make any sense, I'm sorry. I've never been a forum. What is forum? What do you do? I'm confused & lost...
Tunadude
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: January 10, 2012 01:18
I have tried reading the Silmarillion and found it very confusing as though it needed its own class. Perhaps it will just take for me to grow older and understand it better. but can someone tell me where the events in the book take place? Because The map in the book doesn't look like the maps in the other books and I'm not sure if it even takes place in middle earth.
BerethEdhellen
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: January 10, 2012 03:02
The Sil is the back story of LOTR, in other words, the "early days" of Middle Earth. The reason the map is confusing is because the western part of the land on the map, Beleriand, was sunk into the sea.

Think of the Sil as the founding days of Arda. The very first chapter bears a strong resemblance to Genesis in the Bible. This first chapter is the very beginning of Middle Earth and the introduction of the Valar, those mysterious beings that watch over the folks on Middle Earth from their home in Valinor.

The Sil is one of the most fascinating, and yes, confusing books of all of JRRT's books. The best way to read it is one chapter at a time, with lots of notes about the family trees of the elves and their names. Absorbed like that, one chapter at a time, it actually becomes clear and that's where the fascination kicks in.

You might ask Potbelly Hairyfoot to begin book club study of the Sil. They're not only fun, but they answer many questions everyone has. It's also a great way to get involved with your fellow members. *smiles*

By the way, welcome to CoE....enjoy and carry on!
Life is good! Live it to the fullest. Love well those near and dear. "You cannot step into the same river twice, for the waters are ever flowing on ....." Heraclitus I Aear cân ven na mar
Tunadude
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Post RE: The Origins of The Silmarillion
on: January 10, 2012 05:28
I think once I figure the sight out, I will join this book club.
PSK
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on: May 17, 2013 11:49
Tunadude, I know I found it hard as well first but I'll quickly try to explain some geographic features of the Sil.
So basically...
Valinor and the Undying lands are in the west. After the men from Numenor tried to sail there the Valar asked Eru Iluvatar to take them out of the reach of men. So they were "removed from the spheres of the world" (correct me on that quote if its wrong). Only elves can get there now, it is beyond the reach of men as the Valar desired.

Numenor was an island given to men so that they could be the westernmost of men (a privalige since they are closest to Valinor.) From Numenor they could see Eressea but not Valinor. The men of valinor prospered and were very happy, and since they had nothing left to do, they wanted to set foot on the Undying lands and gain immortality. Eru Iluvatar got the sea to swallow up Numenor and it was re-named Atlantë.

Beleriand has been swallowed up by the sea at the end of the first age. Only Ossiriad (Lindon in LotR) remains over the blue mountains(Ered Luin) The rest of Middle Earth is pretty much the same.

Hope it helps. I was in a bit of a rush and would be gratefu; if someone could correct the errors I probably made. Hoope you enjoy the Sil! It is my favourite JRRT book

"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
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