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elvishmusician
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Post Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 02:13
I've just been thinking has anyone noticed how the elves are portrayed in the hobbit a lot different to how they are in LOTR, the Sil etc? To me they don't seem as wise, calm, ancient etc. I really like the elves of ME but it seemed to me they were a bit demoted in The Hobbit, I'm not just talking about the drinking incident at Thranduil's, I'm talking about the behaviour at Rivendell as well. Like if you were to compare Bilbo's visit and then Frodo's the image of Rivendell you get is quite a bit different (I know it was under different circumstances but I think that the readers view of a race of people shouldn't be that different just because of circumstance)

I know the Hobbit is aimed at younger children, and to me it seems like it was an idea Tolkien just had and went with and then thought more about things and wrote LOTR, so some things weren't quite the same. I'm not sure if that's how it went, I haven't looked into when things were published much so please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought he went 'the Hobbit', 'LOTR' and then 'the Sil'?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 02:27
A very quick answer to start with - Tolkien started off writing the background to his mythology - which eventually coalesced into The Sil. So really the ideas and stories of the Sil came first. Then the Hobbit, then LotR. The Sil was *published* after the others, but its contents date back to Tolkien's early days of writing ...
Celebrian
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 07:45
I always thought of it as a POV issue. The Hobbit was supposed to have been written by Bilbo and was therefore his interpretation of characters and locations. Sort of like the old joke about the blind men and the elephant.
Ithildin55
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 09:32
As Atalante said, the stories that were the precursors to those published in the Sil. did come first. When JRRT wrote The Hobbit, he didn’t really intend to formally connect it to the other mythology, but drew names and events from that material – mainly because at that time he didn’t envision ever publishing it anyway.

After the Hobbit proved to be a success, he started working to publish the Silmarillion, but the publishers wanted a sequel instead. Unlike The Hobbit, LOTR was intentionally connected to the mythology, so at that point he began tying The Hobbit in as well. The revised version included some changes that made the stories more compatible, but his real desire was to re-write The Hobbit. He never got around to it. I like to wonder what he would have changed.

And as Celebrian said, the main internal reason would be the POV of the Hobbit author. Also, Tolkien did work at merging the stories, for instance, I believe the character of Legolas serves as a bridge between the Wood-elves of The Hobbit and the Silmarillion Elves that appear in LOTR.

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orthanc5
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 10:38
I think that the circumstances were a big part of the differences, as well as a lot of the elves having left for the Havens. Also, Frodo's visit to Rivendell was one where there was a definite purpose. Bilbo was there to rest and get supplies, so he saw the elves in their day-to-day lives, just hanging out.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 11:21
I never thought of the POV (that stand for point-of-view, right?) issue. I thought that the difference mostly was in whether you were looking at the Vanyar, Teleri, Noldor, or Sindar; or the Nandor. But the more serious elves fit LotR and The Silmarillion better, and the more lighthearted elves The Hobbit. Legolas, whose father was Sindarin thought he seems to identify himself with the Silvan Elves, seems to be in between these two.
VorondilTheHunter
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 03:37
I read the Hobbit first, and the elves were nothing like the elves of LotR. I agree with orthanc5 and Celebrian, perhaps it was the circumstances or just Bilbo's view.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 03, 2004 11:48
In the LOTR, Sam describes the elves of Rivendell: Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children. The elves described in The Hobbit certainly seem to belong in the "merry as children" crowd, hanging from trees and singing silly songs, or partying in the woods and occasionally drinking too much. On the other hand, the army of Mirkwood fights in the Battle of Five Armies quite as skillfully and valiantly as the humans or dwarves so, there's a more serious note about them, bringing them closer to the elves in the LOTR or the Sil.
pv
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 06, 2004 04:44
I also found a big difference between the elves in The Silmarillion and the elves in the LotR - the elves in the Sil seem like regular people, with all their faults, and the ones in LotR seem to be wiser and more highly evolved than the other races. The elves in The Hobbit are different from both the Sil and the LotR - their faults are not the faults of a Feanor, for instance, but very mundane faults such as greed and drunkenness.
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Nan
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 06, 2004 08:54
I think a lot of the differences come from the fact that the Hobbit doesn't seem to have as deep a history as LOTR. This makes sense with what Ithildin55 said about the way the books were written.
The Elves in LOTR have a long history that "shines" through all their characters. It isn't just the elves though, it's everything in the LOTR. Every character, place, object has REAL history. In the Hobbit, even when history is hinted at, it somehow doesn't have the depth and reality that LOTR has.
I like the idea suggested by a few here: that it's because The Hobbit is written from Bilbo's POV, yes that makes a lot of sense! thank you for pointing it out to me.
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tigerrabbit
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 16, 2004 03:46
(in the hobbit) maybe its me or did anyone else get the feeling that mirkwood (did i spell that right?) elves were a little more well, i don't want to say evil but um, more prone to kill you,

but it could be because there were a bunch of dworves running around (man my spelling sucks) or they had giant spiders to deal with. wah i don't know and its been almost a year since i read that one i don't remember
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: November 16, 2004 08:10
In Mirkwood I felt the elves were a bit more 'hostile' but Mirkwood was situated near Dol Guldur (where Sauron's power began to grow before he moved back to Mordor again), this meant they had to be extra careful of spies because they weren't in as 'safe' (well in my opinion) place as say Rivendell. Yes and also the fact that they were dwarves probably wouldn't have helped.
LadyBrooke
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: March 11, 2007 04:05
Personally I felt more like that in Lothlorien when the elves first appear. Each rereading its only gotten worse, probably becuase I now know who Galadriel is now related to. Also Mirkwood probably wouldn't have felt that way if they had been good visitors as opposed to Dwarves who a.)won't tell you what they're doing; b.) It's Dwarves who sacked Doriath and killed your first king Elu Thingol; C.) Oh, yes and it was Dwarves who woke the Balrog in Moria, this caused Amroth to die. After all this I probably would have just killed the Dwarves and been done with it. After all who knows what they're doing? For all you know they're here to destroy your kingdom.
Elainiwen
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: March 13, 2007 08:35
I think the elves were showing more merry side of themselves in The Hobbit. But again, it was about Bilbo's point of view, and hobbits rather like to see the merrier side of things.

Elves are rather serious in LotR and Silmarillion, but again, they tell more openly about the bad times. In the hobbit the powers of The One Ring are described, but not really how it's linked to the whole story. It is described that the elves of Mirkwood are worried, though.

The conclusion is that... ummm... I guess The Hobbit overall tells the humorous and merrier hobbit point of view of Middle-Earth. Also what comes to the elves.
Melianmaia
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: March 14, 2007 05:58
I have read in another forum that in the Hobbit and LOTR the elves are seen through the eyes of the hobbits and in the Sil they are seen through the eyes of the elves.
Rulea
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: March 16, 2007 05:24
The elves were more funny in the Hobbit while in the Lord of the Rings they're really serious, which is understandable because in the Hobbit, they didn't have to worry about Sauron.
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laurelin23
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: March 31, 2007 01:10
I agree with the others who brought up POV. In the Hobbit it's all Bilbo's POV and maybe LOTR and Sil. were more objective.

Also during the hobbit Biblo was traveling with dwarves which as we all know might not be the best idea when wandering through an Elven kingdom. Perhaps the politics between dwarves and Elves might account for the Elves behavior.
NellasTaralom
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: December 02, 2008 05:13
I've always thought that the difference between the elves in the Hobbit and those in LotR was a matter of High Elves vs. Wood Elves.

In LotR, most of the elves are High Elves (Gildor and co, Elrond, Galadriel) and so are more lofty and austere. Even Legolas was Sindarin. The elves of Mirkwood are predominantly Silvan, and having never seen the light of the Trees, they are far less high-minded and tend to be more mortal-like in their conduct, and definitely merrier and more playful instead of serious. Certainly they are still wiser and more skillful than mortals, but not by much.
Loslote
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: December 04, 2008 02:30
I read somewhere that when Tolkien started The Hobbit, he didn't even intend it to take place in ME.
Erucenindë
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Post RE: Elves in 'the hobbit' vs the rest
on: December 05, 2008 08:08
I always like the elves in LOTR than the hobbit. To me, they seemed almost too carefree and too childish. Sure, one can have a good time, but i always envisioned them different. they've lived long enough to see many things, i think they would be very wise.

but good thoughts, everyone. especailly on POV and time and place.
cirdaneth
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on: October 11, 2014 04:24
I've always wondered if the silly annoying ill-mannered elves first met with in The Hobbit are perhaps adolescent elves who think its OK to make fun of everyone. Just a thought.
Gandolorin
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on: October 12, 2014 11:06
Just to name one JRRT Silmarillion Elf in existence at the time the Hobbit was first told to his children and then written down: can ANYONE imagine fitting someone like Fëanor into The Hobbit? Uh-uh.
So I feel certain that JRRT, in the end writing a book for children up to 10 years of age, fell back ALMOST to the Tinker Bell view of them, but then the comment "Even decent enough Dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think) ..." belies their silly songs in TH. TH was just no place for Fëanor and his kind, but a rather conventional "children's fairy tales elves" situation with some serious caveats that are not enlarged on. At least not in Rivendell. The Wood-Elves are a different matter ...
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~nólemë~
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on: October 12, 2014 11:25
Interesting thought, Cirdaneth. TH style is a bit childish and naive, and I'm not surprised JRRT wanted to rewrite it to resemble LotR more. Pity he hasn't, as a comparison of the two versions would be fascinating.
My theory for TH Elves is that they are not only seen through the eyes of Bilbo and thus simplified (e.g. the reason for Thranduil's resentment for Dwarves), but that some parts (like the drunken snoring or making fun of people) are embellished by Bilbo to be more exciting and relateable for mortal readers of his Book.
I've also read an interesting theory, by Dreamflower I believe, that some of what Bilbo hears was in Elvish -a melodious language that might well sound like a nonsensical song- and he simply took a wild guess at what was said and sung. The songs might be just a rough attempt by Bilbo to capture the sounds he heard, without knowing what it literally meant in Elvish.
The Elven children described in the Laws of the Eldar just seem too well-behaved for the 'cheeky teenager' theory, IMO.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
cirdaneth
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on: October 13, 2014 12:45
You've got a point there. We tend to forget that everything is from viewpoints internal to the legendarium.
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on: October 15, 2014 01:14
Except that The Hobbit is most obviously written by a modern narrator and not by a hobbit.

No, I think the Elves tease the company because they don't really care about worldly things, as Gildor says in FOTR. Their flippant andplayful behaviour belies the fact that they seem to know an awful lot about the party. Not so silly it seems.
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on: October 17, 2014 02:05
I disagree on the second paragraph. The Elves in LotR care about worldly things as little as those in TH, but as for personalities, they seem quite different, except for Elrond perhaps. Haldir in LotR speaks much more eloquently than Thranduil, the LotR Elves of Rivendell are not singing 'la la lally' and such, Lindir's joke about sheep is much more sophisticated than jokes about wet beards and hobbits getting too fat to burgle; even Bilbo's song of Earendil is several levels above any song that appears in TH. For me the difference between LotR and TH Elves goes beyond teasing and playfulness, as well as the general style of the book, which is why I stick to the 'narrator's fault' version to explain the discrepancy.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Gandolorin
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on: October 17, 2014 07:59
~nólemë~ said:... which is why I stick to the 'narrator's fault' version to explain the discrepancy.

Fault only in retrospect, with what came later by comparison. I've mentioned the fact that I have been told explicitly that Tom Bombadil is a steep hurdle to get past in FoTR by one person, and was told when I first read it that I have to persevere past - I forget, but dear old Tom is the main suspect. His songs are those coming closest to those of the Elves of TH.

After publication of the LoTR, JRRT had The Silmarillion on his mind again. So, except for the changed Gollum chapter, which occurred before publication of the LoTR, he never got around to rewriting TH to bring it closer to LoTR. The intrusive narrator would have to go, the Elves (and Dwarves!) given their appropriate dignity - come to think of it, the Orcs, too.

But not necessarily the Shire. That, in FoTR, is lighter in tone than much of the late Hobbit (especially thought sans narrator). As far as I'm concerned, the contrast between the "hobbitish" beginning and the growing comprehension of our "representatives" in Middle-Earth, the Hobbits, of the much darker and dangerous wider world surrounding their little Shire, is one of it's strengths. Not intended from the beginning, again one of its strengths.

That change in tone is one thing PJ is doing in the Hobbit films.
(I just realized that Elrond and his men returning to Rivendell from hunting the Orcs and circling around the Dwarves & Bilbo duplicates the meeting of Éomer and his men with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in TT!)
But JRRT HAS written much background to TH elsewhere and later, and that total material is the example to which I hold PJ's efforts, not just the children's book The Hobbit.

And here I would say PJ's Elves have very little reason to complain. The Dwarves have very much reason to complain, some of them have been pressed into the silly part of the book's Elves. And I'm not sure the Orcs would be entirely pleased, either.
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Tyrhael
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on: October 19, 2014 04:02
Gandolorin said:After publication of the LoTR, JRRT had The Silmarillion on his mind again. So, except for the changed Gollum chapter, which occurred before publication of the LoTR, he never got around to rewriting TH to bring it closer to LoTR. The intrusive narrator would have to go, the Elves (and Dwarves!) given their appropriate dignity - come to think of it, the Orcs, too.


You may be interested to know that JRRT did indeed start a revision (third edition) of The Hobbit to bring it closer to LotR, but abandoned it. What there is of it can be found in Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit.

[Edited on 10/19/2014 by Tyrhael]
Gandolorin
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on: October 20, 2014 11:06
Tyrhael said:You may be interested to know that JRRT did indeed start a revision (third edition) of The Hobbit to bring it closer to LotR, but abandoned it. What there is of it can be found in Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit.
[Edited on 10/19/2014 by Tyrhael]

Thanks for the information, Tyrhael. As per Wikipedia, he started in 1960 but abandoned it after criticism (Ring-lording The Hobbits was NOT seen as a good thing - tempora mutantur!)
Again Wikipedia, Rateliff's "The History of The Hobbit" was published in 2007. Should it have gone out of print, it might have been - or will be - reissued, have to check my favorite bookstore.
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