Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Movies Discussion » Discuss the Movies » Portrayal of Women in the Movies
12
Author Topic:
ariah
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 24
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: April 30, 2004 04:05

One thing that just popped into my head was the speech by Grima Wormtongue in the movies and I think Gandalf in the books when he talked to Eowyn about being trapped in her bower - I can't quote it - don't have the book with me. Do you think that might have been the motivation behind her wanting to go to war with the men? A conversation about that would be interesting.


"But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?"

In the books this is said by Gandalf to Eomer and Aragorn in the Houses of Healing. But what's interesting to me is that he's talking about the way Wormtongue poisoned Eowyn's mind as well as Theoden's. Here's another quote from Gandalf that precedes the above -

"She, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonourable dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on. Think you Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?"

I don't think Eowyn wanted to go out and die *only* because Aragorn didn't return her love. That was part of it, but before that Wormtongue's influence had made her think that her life - and perhaps her role as a woman - in Rohan was worthless. When Aragorn came along he represented the honour and nobility that Eowyn felt was gone from her life. And so perhaps his rejection of her confirmed to her that she was shut off from everything of value, and this is why she despaired.

I agree that it's wrong to think of Eowyn in modern feminist terms, and I don't think she is as a symbol of 'women's empowerment' in modern sense. Although her fight against the Witch-king is 'heroic' in a way, I think Tolkien emphasises than her actions come out of her despair. When she is chosen (in the books) to rule in Theoden's stead while he leads the army to Helms Deep, this makes it clear that the people of Rohan hold her in high honour, but Eowyn herself does not seem to recognise that the role she has been given is honourable. Part of her story is that she needs to learn that there *is* value and honour in living - and in "women's" duties and tasks - not only in fighting and dying.

I hope this makes sense (and I'm sorry this is a very book-oriented post to a movie forum!)
Iarwain17
Council Member
Posts: 10
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: April 30, 2004 11:15
I really wanted to see Glorfindil in the movie, and if they had included more from the book in Rivendell, there would be at least one scene with Arwen in it in FOTR. It [/b]was[b] a good thing for them to put Arwen in it since they cut that scene, but I don't really like the costume she has on when Frodo isn't seeing her in his almost dead state. It just doesn't seem Elvish to me

For all those who didn't know, most of the Riders of Rohan are women. That's because there were more women who were experienced with horses than there were men. So, there are women there, even if it doesn't appear so.

[Edited on 30/4/2004 by Iarwain17]
Eruantalincë
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 298
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 01, 2004 07:19
Personally I think that "Tolkien's World" was only dominated by men in number. As said before: there a few women in the book/movies, but they all have their own specific part, strong without betraying their "womanhood". I think respect is partly accept what you are: female. Every gender has its own "functionality", which only might change by age.

In this point of view, I think Eowyn is the most disrespectful of the women, shown in the movies. A bit dumb too: how the *** could she think she could do the same men can? Or that men have no duties to obey to? And as someone mentioned before: she was highly respected, but unwilling (or maybe unable) to see that. Unsatisfied and childish she was and it took a war to get grown up.

Arwen and Galadriel were powerful, not only because they were Elvenladies, but they knew what they were (feminine), they knew what they could (which was not going to a 'men's war') and they knew how to stay true to themselves with pride. I cannot remember that those two raised their voices in the entire trilogy, for example. Still, when they talked, people listened to them.

And I also respect the mother of Eothain and Freda (in TTT, when the Easterlings are attacking the little village). She could have tried to join them on the horse, but she knew that her childeren had more change with just the two of them. She decided to give her childeren a change, rather than herself. Now that is womanpower, in my opinion.
woodstar
Therapist for Gollum
Posts: 245
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 05:56
In this point of view, I think Eowyn is the most disrespectful of the women, shown in the movies. A bit dumb too: how the *** could she think she could do the same men can? Or that men have no duties to obey to? And as someone mentioned before: she was highly respected, but unwilling (or maybe unable) to see that. Unsatisfied and childish she was and it took a war to get grown up.


I think I would have to disagree with you on that. Eowyn is a very strong woman, and I do think she is aware of the esteem she is held in. But it is her choice not to just accept that. She wants to do more for her people than just sit around and let things happen to her. She wants to do the doing instead of being at the receiving end of things.

Yes, in Tolkien's world and the time he wrote this, women did have their role which was different than what women do today. But it was those few women back then, those few that wanted to do more that changed it for us today.

From what I see Eowyn do, I see no disrespect to her gender. She just feels constricted with what was allotted to her. She knows background in war, she knows swordplay. To be a woman doesn't always mean to stand back.

The Elven ladies stood back, but not necessarily because they 'knew their place'. All you need to do is read the Sil to learn more about Galadriel and her history. She was one of the leaders in the Noldorin rebellion. She did a lot more than stand back. She helped lead her kin in a rebellion.

Eowyn is a different personality with a harsher history and background than Arwen. I think it is unfair to compare their actions when their motives and drive are completely different.

So, I would not say Eowyn childish or rude. She is a strong lady, with more to do. I could go on, comparing her actions with other ladies in history (not to say they are equal) But take Joan of Arc for example. She did more than what was allotted to her, etc..

[/rant]
ariah
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 24
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 06:56
Woodstar, I agree with you that Eowyn is a strong character. But in the books I see her as rather a 'tragic' figure (meaning that in a literary sense). She is powerful, with the potential for greatness, but is almost destroyed by her despair. Her decision to join the army marching to Gondor seems almost like a suicide attempt.

But perhaps in the movies the way she is portrayed does give more a more positive emphasis to her rebellion against the constraints placed on women in her society.

[Edited on 2/5/2004 by ariah]
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 11:15
I think I would have to disagree with you on that. Eowyn is a very strong woman, and I do think she is aware of the esteem she is held in. But it is her choice not to just accept that. She wants to do more for her people than just sit around and let things happen to her. She wants to do the doing instead of being at the receiving end of things.


I agree with you somewhat. Eowyn is indeed a strong character in the sense of battle. However, imo she is far more complexed. We have to take into consideration all the tragic things that had occurred in her life by that time she goes to war and the dishonor that she felt Theoden brought upon the House of Eorl during his dotage. Gandalf could not have said it better when he said, "Who knows what you whispers in the bitter watches of the night...when all her world is closing in..."

Another thing you mentioned was that she wanted to do more for her people. I have mixed feelings about that. She did not think that there was honor in governing her people when Tbeoden left her in charge at Dunharrow. She rather to go to battle to win valor and renown. Those are two key points. That tells us what she values most. I think we are misunderstanding her character.

Now, I think that is a more accurate picture of Eowyn. The movie did not bring that out as much as the book. Personally I felt that her story was a journey to finding herself.


From what I see Eowyn do, I see no disrespect to her gender. She just feels constricted with what was allotted to her. She knows background in war, she knows swordplay. To be a woman doesn't always mean to stand back.


True. She did feel constricted. However, as I mentioned before, she went to war to win valor and renown.

The Elven ladies stood back, but not necessarily because they 'knew their place'. All you need to do is read the Sil to learn more about Galadriel and her history. She was one of the leaders in the Noldorin rebellion. She did a lot more than stand back. She helped lead her kin in a rebellion.


I would not exactly say that Galadriel led the revolt against the Valor. Feanor and his sons were the leader of the revolt and his people followed them. Galadriel yearned to learn more of the outer lands and wanted to establish her own realm in M/E. SShe saw it as her opportunity to leave Valinor. When the kinslaying occurred, it propelled her and several others to follow Feanor seeking revenge.

Eowyn is a different personality with a harsher history and background than Arwen. I think it is unfair to compare their actions when their motives and drive are completely different.


I agree. They should not be compared. Its like comparing the Rohirrim with the Numenoreans. Different as night and day.


She is powerful, with the potential for greatness, but is almost destroyed by her despair. Her decision to join the army marching to Gondor seems almost like a suicide attempt.


I would just leave it as a strong character. IMO, POWERFUL is reserved for Galadriel, Haleth, Melian, and Luthien. They had great influence and shaped the lives of many. Haleth being the mortal among them ruled her people well and it was a "selfless" act. Not to win valor and renown.










woodstar
Therapist for Gollum
Posts: 245
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 02:17
I guess the way I take Eowyn is different than your take Celebrianna .

I would have to disagree that the only key reasons why Eowyn went to war is to 'win valour and renown'. Yes, she wants that dearly. She wants to do great things. One of my favorite lines from the books and movie is what her fear is. She fears a cage, she fears being locked up behind bars and restraints. She is a doer. She wants to go to war, to do more than sit around.

I think there is more than self-interest in her heart, then meets the eyes. Yes, she wants the honors. But she wants to get them while defending her people, which she sees that she can't do that while sitting around governing them.

So like I said, I disagree that valour and renown are her only reasons for going to war.

That is why she takes pity on Merry. He wants to fight like everyone else to save his home and something he believes in. She understands that completely.

I agree, her story is a journey in finding herself. Finding acceptence in who she is.

With Galadriel, I know she was not the leader of the rebilion, but she was a part of the leadership. But, my point was in pointing out her history, is she did not sit back, she went out and did, just like what Eowyn was propelled to do. I was showing that she did not stay inside the 'feminine role' as it were.

But, you do make excellent point Celebrianna, some that do change my opinion slightly and make me look at it from another angle
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 04:24
I would have to disagree that the only key reasons why Eowyn went to war is to 'win valour and renown'. Yes, she wants that dearly. She wants to do great things. One of my favorite lines from the books and movie is what her fear is. She fears a cage, she fears being locked up behind bars and restraints. She is a doer. She wants to go to war, to do more than sit around.


Fair enough. We just interpret her character differently. I agree that she not only went to war to seek valor and renown but also "death." How could I forget that significant piece. When Merry saw her on the Fields of Pelennor he realized that she was Derhelm whom he saw at Dunharrow with the a look in his/her eyes as one who goes seeking death. I have no problem with a woman wanting to "step outside the box" if you will. However, I think many romanticize Eowyn's deeds. Yes she is strong but I am not so sure she wants to help her people. She did not give a second thought to governing her people which, as Aragorn said, is also an honourable charge. If you want to say that she desired to fight alongside the other soldiers, fine. Afterall, she is as brave as any one of them.

I can understand why she feels trapped. Had her life been different she might have felt differently. I believe one of the reasons she felt trapped is because of the years of darkness that Grima wrought in the house of Theoden and having to wait upon Theoden who had fallen into darkness. She probably had never left Rohan in her entire life. She must have felt really trapped.

I think there is more than self-interest in her heart, then meets the eyes. Yes, she wants the honors. But she wants to get them while defending her people, which she sees that she can't do that while sitting around governing them.


Now, I always thought that the Fields of Pelennor had to do with defending the people of Gondor. Rohan was answering the call of Gondor. The people of Rohan was left without governance in the encampment of Dunharrow. I dont think Sauron was even bothering with Rohan by that time. Yes he has many servants perpetrating his work, but Gondor was mostly on his mind. Why else would he send his captain to squash the people of Numenor? And yes, Eowyn fulfilled Glorfindel's prophecy that he had spoken to Earnur over 1000 years before but the feelings that drove her to the Fields of Pelennor is independent of that.

But, my point was in pointing out her history, is she did not sit back, she went out and did, just like what Eowyn was propelled to do. I was showing that she did not stay inside the 'feminine role' as it were.


Now, I totally disagree. Galadriel never went seeking war. Galadriel was ambitious and saw the time of Feanor's revolt the perfect opportunity to seek the outer lands to increase her knowledge. She knew if she stayed behind it would be no leaving Valinor since she felt that Manwe would stay her departure. If Galadriel was like that, there were many wars involving her kin in the first Age and never once did she take part. Instead she chose to stay with Melian and learn as much as she could from her. Okay, Galadriel, imo, stayed within the feminine role. Never has she gone to battle. She fought at the kinslaying but I am sure there were women there who also did. She is a woman of wisdom and who could blame her. In fact, after some time she left Belerian and withdrew with Celeborn and went into the East. I believe she saw the folly of her Noldorin kin in fighting many useless wars.

That is not "stepping out" of the feminine role. And there is nothing wrong with the feminine role. Melian, Luthien, and Galadriel were the epitomy of feminimity and they were very powerful I might add. Melian for her guardianship of Doriath and her advice to Thingol. Luthien for assisting Beren in winning the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown and also humiliating Sauron, and Galadriel for the guardianship of her realm. All these women in some way influenced and shaped the lives of many. If Luthien had not the Silmaril, then Earendil would not have been able to summon the Valor on behalf of elves and men. Yet all these women respected and publicly kept themselves as the second in command to their men. What do you have to say to that?

Haleth and Eowyn stepped out of the feminine role though I would most likely class Haleth as more so. In fact, I hardly see Haleth as feminine. She never took husband or had a child. Instead she governed and defended her people. In Eowyn's case, I have to say that Faramir told Sam and Frodo that the women of Rohan are all tall and valiant. That leads me to believe that there were more women in Rohan like that. Therefore, I may say that it was their nature/culture to prized battle above all else. Eowyn said it herself in the movie: The women in this country know that those who know not how to use a weapon would die upon them (something like that). So it must be their way of life. In fact it must be so because Faramir said that "We are grown more like the Rohirrim who take pleasure only in battle." It was their way of life.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 02, 2004 10:33
Wow, this is turning into a very interesting debate very quickly

Just one comment:

But she wants to get them while defending her people, which she sees that she can't do that while sitting around governing them.


Governing is in itself a way of defending your people, making sure they're safe. What is more, she could have had valour and reknown had she stayed at home and kept her people safe as well - amongst her people that would have been appreciated.

But Rohirrim don't want to be appreciated, they want to be 'put into songs'. They want to become immortal through remembrance, and that's imho the key to Éowyn: she wants that kind of immortality, which is usually reserved only for men.

Don't forget that she's interested in Aragorn for 'glory and reknown' as well, there's not much doing there.

She seeks glory in death, that's what I've always seen in her. She is so desperate to make a stand that she is willing to die for it, to die for glory, to die for immortality: she wants her life to be meaningful.

I think what Faramir shows her at the houses of healing is that life is meaningful through the eyes of another person, by reaching out and touching someone's heart. Hence the switch from warrior to healer.

But the movie Éowyn is a poor substitute for the many-layered Éowyn of the books, I feel. She might be a stronger character, but she lost so much of her essence and real strength. Like Boromir, her strength is in her last actions: trusting Faramir, turning her life around... finding meaning in life, not in death.
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 03, 2004 02:54
Bravo Figwit. That was a great analysis of her. To be honest, I really do not understand her well nor have I ever tried. I usually skip over the part in the book where she all but grovels at Aragorn's feet. I really really did not like that. I feel embarassed when I read it. I see her more as a restless child on a journey to finding herself and Faramir opens her eyes to the important things in life. Faramir is so good. He has so much patience.
Eruantalincë
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 298
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 03, 2004 10:59
From what I see Eowyn do, I see no disrespect to her gender. She just feels constricted with what was allotted to her. She knows background in war, she knows swordplay. To be a woman doesn't always mean to stand back.
A woman does not have to stand back. I never said that. Still, I think whimping and whining (not only in the movies, but in my point of view also in the books) does not work out properly, IMO. Therefore, I do not think Eowyn is a strong character. I mean, 'even' in that male-dominated society, she had respect. Respect of Theoden, respect of Eomer, respect of her people, and she would have seen it if she only was willing to open her eyes. But she choose not to, instead of see how highly she was appriciated, she remained in her own narrowminded idea of 'pride and glory'.
The Elven ladies stood back, but not necessarily because they 'knew their place'.
I never said that either. I said they knew what they were and acted like that. That is exactly why I have far more respect for Galadriel, Arwen and Luthien than Eowyn. They were strong at heart and in mind.
But Rohirrim don't want to be appreciated, they want to be 'put into songs'. They want to become immortal through remembrance, and that's imho the key to Éowyn: she wants that kind of immortality, which is usually reserved only for men.
I agree with Figwit about her charactarization. Still, when one leaves the people to be slaughtered because there is 'no honour in governing', who will sing the songs of remembrance? For this reason, I never understood why she thought she would be remembered. Immortality can be found in many ways and fighting is not always part of it.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 04, 2004 03:46
Still, when one leaves the people to be slaughtered because there is 'no honour in governing', who will sing the songs of remembrance? For this reason, I never understood why she thought she would be remembered. Immortality can be found in many ways and fighting is not always part of it.


That's what Faramir teaches Éowyn in the end, I've always felt.

But to understand Éowyn's need to seek glory on the battlefield, you have to see her as part of a culture - the Rohirrim culture. They are based on old Germanic (mainly Danish) tribes, where the idea of living on in song, in legend is also very important. Shakespeare's famous poet, Sonent 18, resembles this thought very closely. So the idea isn't as silly as it sounds (in this particular case), it's thoroughly human, not just Northern European (look at Egyptians for instance and theri cult of the image).

Anyway, that was all a bit off-topic . Sorry about that. But the Rohirrim, and mainly Théoden and Éowyn, are very fascinating, imho. I don't think PJ did them justice, but at least he made up for TTT in ROTK, a bit.
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: May 04, 2004 08:31
That makes sense Figwit. Now see, I never thought of any of the characters in LOTR as fascinating except maybe Denethor and Saruman. The story is great though. Of Tolkien characters, I always found Feanor and Turin more fascinating. Half of the time I think they were crazy (just kidding) but I love analyzing them.
EruanwenSaeriel
Council Member
Posts: 85
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 04, 2004 08:52
Bravo Figwit. That was a great analysis of her. To be honest, I really do not understand her well nor have I ever tried. I usually skip over the part in the book where she all but grovels at Aragorn's feet. I really really did not like that. I feel embarassed when I read it. I see her more as a restless child on a journey to finding herself and Faramir opens her eyes to the important things in life. Faramir is so good. He has so much patience.



Well I want to weigh in again after a month and a bit. I think the discussion has forgotten (can a discussion forget?) that Eowyn is a woman and sometimes women forget themselve and grovel. Just because she is a strong woman it doesn't mean she doesn't have the same weaknesses as many of us women do.

Remember that Aragorn was a very attractive figure to her. He emobodied all that she, as a Rohan woman, valued and prized. He was tall, kingly, brave, humble - what more could a warrior maiden from Rohan want. She was initially unaware that he had promised his heart to an elven maiden.

I think that small bit of weakness endeared her to me in a way. She became human in my eyes - I think her wish to go into battle was a logical path to take for her. She was in despair, not only because her world had been darkened by Wormtongue for so many years, but the person whom she thought might bring her out of the darkness was betrothed to another and absolutely not interested in "saving" her from that. Rather he tried to convince her to behave in a way that somehow seemed abhorent to her - to act like a woman. And remember, Aragorn had not the authority to change the will of the king. She was asking him for something he could not provide.

What say you all? This is a very interesting conversation.

[Edited on 9/6/2004 by EruanwenSaeriel]
elvishgal
Council Member
Posts: 6
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 14, 2004 10:58
Well I think all the women in the movie were beautiful....
I thought Arwen looked beautiful in ROTK with the cloak..that was amazing
Galadriel and Eowyn just looked stunning through out the whole movie
All the women looked great in the movie
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 15, 2004 07:46

I think the discussion has forgotten (can a discussion forget?) that Eowyn is a woman and sometimes women forget themselve and grovel. Just because she is a strong woman it doesn't mean she doesn't have the same weaknesses as many of us women do.

Remember that Aragorn was a very attractive figure to her. He emobodied all that she, as a Rohan woman, valued and prized. He was tall, kingly, brave, humble - what more could a warrior maiden from Rohan want. She was initially unaware that he had promised his heart to an elven maiden.

I think that small bit of weakness endeared her to me in a way.
~ EruanwenSaeriel


I don't know, I have a double feeling about it. I don't think she really grovelled, but I think she showed great weakness when she noticed he was leaving: everything became secondary to her. No matter how much you love someone, that doesn't really show much strength.

I'm going to think a bit further on this, because I got the books in my mind and i'm not thinking straight, but it's a great suggestion you make there.
tiniwel
Council Member
Posts: 52
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 15, 2004 11:12
Personaly, I think they overdid Arwen slightly, but not too much. I REALLY like Eowyn. One thing I don't like is that they put Arwen on the movie poster and they didn't put Eowyn on it. Oh well, it's thier decision.

Sarah aka Tiniwel
CeruleanMosaic
Council Member
Posts: 26
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 15, 2004 12:48
One thing that really interested me about the movies was the way in which the characters broke free from their traditional roles. (I haven't read the books yet, working on it lol) The hobbits leaving the shire, elves and dwarves working together, elves staying to fight when they could be sailing safely away to the west, Rohan helping Gondor, the Ents going to war, etc etc. As always, major changes can happen when someone is bold enough to step out of the norm.

Having said that LOL

I like Eowyn. Her uncle, cousin and brother have all gone off to war. A loyalty to one's land and people that is so strong you are willing to give your life for it is something that she is taught first hand. If she had come from a family of healers I'm sure her persepctive on serving and saving one's people would be different. Fighting is what she knows. She was fighting when we first saw her, raging against the "illness" that was taking over her uncle. She wasn't down mourning the slow fall of Rohan like the townspeople Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf first meet. She didn't fit in with the women in Helm's deep either, crying and waiting to see what would happen. It might be feminine, but it isn't helping matters much. She wants to do because that is what's in her blood.

I think my favorite Eowyn line is "the women of this country learned long ago that those (who cannot fight with swords?) can still die upon them". No kidding. Somehow, hearing "You look wonderfully feminine dear, too bad you're dead" just doesn't cut it for me.

I understand what she hoped to get with Aragorn. What can I say, he's cute and determined. Honestly though, putting her hopes on him made her take a step back in my view. The knight isn't riding in on the horse dear, let it go LOL But as for him being the reason she went to war, didn't she have the sword with her before he rejected her? She certainly had the skills before they met. I think she went to the camps with every intention of going to war. I just can't see her watching all the men ride off and then riding back to Edoras to await news. It just isn't in her. I also doubt that she'd get Merry ready just to send him off on his own too. She looked a bit too thoughtful when she asked Eomer why Merry shouldn't be able to go and defend the ones he loved.

As for what good her service did....well, she did defend her king, which was more that the MEN around him did. When Theoden was thrown Eowyn was the one that stepped up, not a single Rohirrim soldier was there to aid him. If I remember correctly they were RUNNING AWAY. Yes he died, but she was there to defend him, and was there until he passed on. She also defeated the Witch King, who, I'm sure, would have cause a lot more problems if he'd been allowed to run rampant. She killed that flying lizard thing too, which, again, was more than any of the men did. The only thing that took away from her at this point was the way she fell. Seriously, when have you ever seen a real woman fall like that? I guess that was PJ's way to try to satisfy the "feminine police".

After all that ranting LOL I guess my point is that there are different ways to be feminine. Some women exude their power by being strong advisors and standing by their mates. Good for them. Some show it by maintaining a strong home and raising children. Good for them too. Some show it by being vocal and standing up for their beliefs, challenging a system that they feel is unfair. Really good for them. It takes all aspects to make a society work. I don't think that Eowyn's decision to go to war means that she was failing her people. After all, if they didn't win the war of the ring all that traditional feminine stuff would have gone to the Lord of the Ring himself, along with everything else. This wasn't a battle for territory sort of war. This was a "now or never, this is it!" sort of war. Someone asked just what she thought she could do. Fight with her whole heart is what she could do, and did. And that's what won the war, not their numbers or skill. Physical strength was not all that was needed.

I see Eowyn's changed view with Faramir as a result of just being tired of war in general, not her acceptance of a "woman's role". The Rohirrim have been fighting for a long, long time, and that wears down the soul. After a long while even the strongest warrior gets weary. If they had met before Helm's Deep or the fight at Minas Tirith I think her reaction to him would have been different.

Ok, I've ranted and ranted and ranted lol (Sorry, but that bit about someone not being feminine because they didn't have a husband or children really got to me LOL) To be honest, I'll probably rant more later on.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 15, 2004 10:27
Very good post, CeruleanMosaic. I don't completely agree, but you sure had me thinking there about the contrast between the men on Pelennor and the one woman. I'm inclined to say, however, that if it had been Éomer he would have done the same (but he would have been killed ). I think Éowyn stood up to the Witch-king, both because she considered her uncle like a father, and because she had set out to die anyway (though in the movie, that's not at all clear).
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 16, 2004 02:50
Ok, I've ranted and ranted and ranted lol (Sorry, but that bit about someone not being feminine because they didn't have a husband or children really got to me LOL) To be honest, I'll probably rant more later on.


hmmmm!!! Fair enough. Let me clarify myself then. According to the Oxford dictionary feminine means: of or characteristic of women or having qualities associated with women. In other words, the things that were characteristic of women back then. Now, when I was speaking about Haleth and Eowyn in the world of Middle Earth, they defied what feminine was back then. The only two female warriors that are really spoken of were those two. Oh, I am not talking about feminine in the sense of physical qualities either. Just trying to make myself clear. Therefore, there is no need to get all flustered because I stated that as my opinion. And remember, I am not talking about modern day lifestyle. I suppose women now do everything men do, right?

Which reminds me, when I read the Sil, I found it really weird that the women seem to feel they could not live without their men. Lets see

1. Melian. When Thingol died she left.
2. Luthien. When Beren died she died of grief
3. Rian. When Huor died she laid down herself and died.
4. Elwing. Forsook M/E to be with Earendil
5. Morwen. Stayed in her land awaiting Hurin's return despite of the danger to herself.
6.Niniel...not too sure about her but I know she chose to die after she thought Turin was dead. But perhaps she chose to die because of the horror of the dragon's revelation.
7. Idril. Accompanied Tuor on his voyage seeking the West although the ban was not lifted as yet.

Did I forget anyone? Anyway, I found that very striking when I read the Sil because in some cases I said, "well what about their children?"




[Edited on 17/6/2004 by Celebrianna]
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 16, 2004 10:32
Well, Celebrianna, I'd have to disagree with you. I can see how a gender-definition of 'feminine' in Middle-earth could be seen as being defied on the basis of Lord of the Rings alone, but not if you include the Sil. Women were never presented as warriors (which does not exclude the possibility that they did fight, mind you) but they are presented as leaders.
Look at the 'deities': God is a women Who do the Elves call upon when they need help? First Varda, or Elbereth, and next Lúthien. Both women!

As for the movies (that's what this is about, after all), I don't find the gender-definiton of women all that clear in them. All women are strong and powerful in their own way: we see Arwen and Éowyn wield a sword, Galadriel is shown as a Walkure at some point, and there's the unexpected cameo of 'Morwen' the Rohan woman who puts her kids on the horse.

There's no gender-stereotypes in the movie at all, and there's no one who says to Éowyn: 'You're a women, you have to stay behind.' As a matter of fact, there's no one saying that to Éowyn in the book either.

I think the gender-aspect (feminity / masculinity as generally defined within a society) is a lot more complex than simply saying there were these categories, and then there were these. If we look at the Valar for instance, we get a very stereotyped formulation of what is masculine (power, strength, endurance) and feminine (care, the stars, beauty, the earth (fertility)). One could argue that this is old-fashioned, but that's a different discussion.
However, when you read through the Sil the picture shifts: Humans and Elves do not have the same gender-differentiations, what we know of Dwarves suggests even a third differentiation; and what is more the balance of 'power' shifts from the strong Valar to the wise and powerful women of Middle-earth.

Of course, this is a book discussion, so it's off topic, sorry about that .
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 17, 2004 04:28
Oh no, Figwit, I absolutely agree with you. But people on this thread seem to think that strength is measured only in the wielding of a sword and brave deeds of war. So I am responding in terms of that. So in that way, I am just saying that Haleth was unusual because she seemed to have sacrificed personal need for the sake of her people.

Eowyn was different because she went to one of the biggest battles of all the ages and killed the Witch King and actually survived.

By no means am I marginalizing the strength and power of the other women. Afterall, Luthien fearlessly humiliated and defeated Sauron. Galadriel is wisest among the Eldar. So, I am not saying they are weak because they certainly arent.

[Edited on 17/6/2004 by Celebrianna]
Eruantalincë
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 298
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 17, 2004 05:55
(Picked out some sentences)
By no means am I marginalizing the strength and power of the other women. Afterall, Luthien fearlessly humiliated and defeated Sauron. Galadriel is wisest among the Eldar. So, I am not saying they are weak because they certainly arent.
So what is than actually the difference with Eowyn?
Eowyn was different because she went to one of the biggest battles of all the ages and killed the Witch King and actually survived.
Luthien against Sauron or Eowyn against the Witch King. It is not a unique action or something like that. Besides, I like Luthien's reason better than Eowyn's. Although I do think that they both were true about their feelings.

And I agree that strength is not only a matter of wielding a sword or other physical abilities.
Celebrianna
Council Member
Posts: 90
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 17, 2004 06:12
The difference was their reasons for fighting. Luthien to aid Beren, her love, Eowyn for renown.

Anyway, with regards to the movie, I guarantee you that most people would class only Eowyn as a strong woman while Galadriel is a close second. That of course, is not my opinion because I think all the women were strong in their own different ways. Its interesting that Figwit mentioned Morwen because here is a woman sending away her children to safety while she remains behind to face danger. Not too many would say that is brave/strong of her, but imho, that certainly counts as a manifestation of strength.

Now, here is another interesting thing that I have noticed. When Arwen cries, she is a wimp or she is considered weak in the opinion of most. So, is it that PJ did a really poor portrayal of Arwen?

However, when Eowyn cries, she is still strong. She cries for Theodred, she cries for Theoden, and she cries a little when Aragorn lets her down. Nevertheless, in the opinion of most, she is still strong.

What is the difference? Is it that Eowyn cries for better reasons?


[Edited on 17/6/2004 by Celebrianna]
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 17, 2004 11:42
Now, here is another interesting thing that I have noticed. When Arwen cries, she is a wimp or she is considered weak in the opinion of most. So, is it that PJ did a really poor portrayal of Arwen?

However, when Eowyn cries, she is still strong. She cries for Theodred, she cries for Theoden, and she cries a little when Aragorn lets her down. Nevertheless, in the opinion of most, she is still strong.

What is the difference? Is it that Eowyn cries for better reasons?



I think it's just because Arwen is a woman's woman: she gives up immortality for a man, when said man dumps her she doesn't start kicking or screaming, she returns to her hopes when she sees she might have a child with this man... Those are all very woman-like things to do.

Éowyn, to me anyway, is just a girl. She does girlish things: she swoons after a guy, she rebels, she sneaks out against her parents orders...

Could that be the difference?
ariah
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 24
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: June 18, 2004 12:26

Now, here is another interesting thing that I have noticed. When Arwen cries, she is a wimp or she is considered weak in the opinion of most. So, is it that PJ did a really poor portrayal of Arwen?

However, when Eowyn cries, she is still strong. She cries for Theodred, she cries for Theoden, and she cries a little when Aragorn lets her down. Nevertheless, in the opinion of most, she is still strong.

What is the difference? Is it that Eowyn cries for better reasons?



I think Eowyn cries only when she is faced with something she can't do anything about - whatever she does, Theodred and Theoden will die, and Aragorn will not love her. Arwen cries when she sees that hope is slipping away, but there are still things that she can do. She cries over Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, though he is not yet lost and she can still get him to Elrond to save him, and she cries when Elrond tells her that she has only death to look forward to if she stays in Middle-earth, whereas (we know if we've read the books, or we find out later in the films) hope is not lost and she will remain and have a child.

However, I personally don't think that Arwen is weak. I think that her strenth lies in that she doesn't give up even when there is very little hope. After all, she prays for Frodo and she does get him to Rivendell, and though she initally accepts Elrond's advice to give up her dream of Aragorn and leave, as soon as she sees that there is even a little hope left she holds on to it and will not let go.

As Figwit says, everything Arwen does is very woman-like, and imho it also shows strength, even though it is a very different kind of strenth to Eowyn's.
EruanwenSaeriel
Council Member
Posts: 85
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: July 12, 2004 02:48
Oh no, Figwit, I absolutely agree with you. But people on this thread seem to think that strength is measured only in the wielding of a sword and brave deeds of war.


Again, I am coming a little late to the conversation but wanted to comment on Celebrianna's assertion that the people on this thread seem to think that strength is measured by swords and brave deeds in war.

I certainly never said that - instead I said that Eowyn would have been more brave and been of more use if she had stayed back and taken care of her people and not seem to disregard it as women's work and somehow unworthy of her attention. Someone I reassert, has to stay back and take care of the people, especially when the King has commanded it. To disregard his instructions in order to find glory, or even to find a way out (through death?) of her circumstances shows, IMHO, a lack of strength.

What say you all?
Gamling
Council Member
Posts: 9
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: July 15, 2004 08:29
To disregard his instructions in order to find glory, or even to find a way out (through death?) of her circumstances shows, IMHO, a lack of strength.

What say you all?


Strength is measured in different ways. It can be measured in obedience, but one must remember Eowyn was caught at a very emotional time. Think about all she's been through:

Death of parents
Death of cousin
Constant harrassment by Grima
A brother who didn't understand her
Being a woman in a war-obsessed society

All of these outside forces were working on Eowyn and wore her down continuously until...

Aragorn

Finally a man who sees some potential for her, then she is unceremoniously rejected. The final nail in the coffin for her: Really what was left for her in Rohan? There was nothing left save to seek a glorious death in battle.

Was Eowyn weak? Did she lack character? Did Denethor? Did Boromir? Did Isildur? Did the sons of Feanor? Did the Noldor? Did Turin Turambar?

No, all of these characters had an outside force working working upon them. And Eowyn had arguably the hardest life, save Turin.

So Eowyn's was not a character flaw, rather the final response of someone who couldn't stand her miserable life anymore.

By the way, I don't recall any records of Erkenbrand riding forth.

[Edited on 15/7/2004 by Gamling]
EruanwenSaeriel
Council Member
Posts: 85
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: July 21, 2004 04:39
Strength is measured in different ways. It can be measured in obedience, but one must remember Eowyn was caught at a very emotional time. Think about all she's been through:

Death of parents
Death of cousin
Constant harrassment by Grima
A brother who didn't understand her
Being a woman in a war-obsessed society

All of these outside forces were working on Eowyn and wore her down continuously until...

Aragorn

Finally a man who sees some potential for her, then she is unceremoniously rejected. The final nail in the coffin for her: Really what was left for her in Rohan? There was nothing left save to seek a glorious death in battle.

Was Eowyn weak? Did she lack character? Did Denethor? Did Boromir? Did Isildur? Did the sons of Feanor? Did the Noldor? Did Turin Turambar?

No, all of these characters had an outside force working working upon them. And Eowyn had arguably the hardest life, save Turin.

So Eowyn's was not a character flaw, rather the final response of someone who couldn't stand her miserable life anymore.

By the way, I don't recall any records of Erkenbrand riding forth.

[Edited on 15/7/2004 by Gamling]


I agree mostly with you but I come from the kind of background that tells me to "just get on with it." Weakness? Yes. Do I condemn it? No. As for being uncerimoniously rejected, IMO, at least in the movie, she was treated kindly and gently by Aragorn.

Turin is another issue altogether. In the Sil Tolkien comments that he was just one of those guys, that everything he touched turned to do-do, if you know what I mean. That he finally married and inpregnated his own sister was the final humiliation for him. I guess what I'm saying here is you make your own luck. As for the Noldor, they weren't exactly learned, above the fray elves were they? Quite a piece of work, many of them. Kinslayers all!

Back to Eowyn. While Eowyn had a tough life, it was up to her to make the best of it. I don't condemn her for it, because I have experienced despair in my life and know what it feels like, but she should have sucked it up and done what was right. I still feel Eowyn didn't do what was right - she should have obeyed her king and sucked it up and stayed with her people.

Good conversation everyone.

[Edited on 23/8/2004 by EruanwenSaeriel]
Eruantalincë
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 298
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: July 21, 2004 07:50
Gamling, I think everyone has a force outside working to him or her. But it is up to everyone themselves how to cope with it.

In those times (the 3rd Age), everyone who lived between Isengard and Mordor lost beloved ones. Not only Eowyn.

I mean, Faramir had a father who did not understand him (rejected him, almost until he died) and he did not rebel against Denethor.

The Rohirrim were not "war-obsessed", IMO. I think they were a brave people, who definitely did not walk away from war, but they did not start a war for sure. Everyone has the right to defense what is theirs, and so did the Rohirrim.

The fact Eowyn is feminine does not change anything. The only truely miserable thing was Grima's obsession for her. But then, I think the way of starting a relationship was different and getting married not only out of love but also for "rational reasons" were quite common.

I certainly do not agree with "Aragorn's unceremonial rejection". He was kind and respectful to her. Only when she did not want to see his attempt to "just" friendship and she kind of claimed him when he had to leave, he was a bit less polite.

There was enough for her in Rohan: she would become the First Lady of the people, who loved her and respected her. When both Theoden and Eomer (who also respected her very deeply) should die, she also would be their queen. There are very few women in those times who could say that. There was more than "only death and glory" for Eowyn in the near future.

[size=1]Besides, I think there are not many men who really understand women and it is likely that women do not want to be understood by men completely, so do not harass Eomer on this point .[/size]

So no.... her life was not that miserable. She just did not could or want to see the other side of the coin.
HeriTavaril
Council Member
Posts: 324
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Portrayal of Women in the Movies
on: September 07, 2004 07:25
Hm This is a very interesting thread. Would I be right in thinking that there are a lot more women registered on this site than men? Certainly from the discussions about the hot guys I suspect so unless of course there are a lot of men on this site who prefer men (and I am not making any judgment on lifestyle choices here, do your own thing). I never had a problem when reading the book thinking "hey I'm a girl and there aren't many girls in this" Nor did I have that problem with the movies and I think I identify with character traits more than gender. So I identify with Pippin getting into trouble, Sam trying to keep his faith in there being good in this world and Arwen having to choose between her Father's plans for her conflicting with her own. I thought the female parts played pretty well given that with so many named characters it was difficult to develop them all to any great extent. Legolas and GImli suffered from this as well. When you are making a movie I suppose you have to focus on the principal characters who are Frodo and Aragorn.
Hanasian
Council Member
Posts: 995
Send Message
Post Eowyn - How the Movies got her Wrong
on: March 13, 2015 09:10
I bring up this old discussion with an essay I found pertaining to Eowyn, and how the writer Mariah Huehner thinks they got movie Eowyn so wrong from the book Eowyn. I happen to agree with most of her points here.

“I am No Man” Doesn’t Cut It: The Story of Eowyn
By Mariah Huehner - 27 Jan 2015

here are many things I love about the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings film adaptations. The attention to detail, the shout outs to uber nerds with Silmarillion refs, the way Legolas jumps up on that horse in The Two Towers. There’s a lot to really admire given the scope of the world and the fact that a large part of the story is following different groups of people wandering around and talking. It takes skill to adapt a work that was clearly never intended for film and make it compelling visually without losing the core of the story. I’m thrilled the films exist and I’m glad that, obsessive geek though I am, it wasn’t me tasked with making that come alive. I doubt very much I could have let go enough of my own feelings about it to do it proper justice.

Still, no adaptation of a work so beloved by so many can possibly match every person’s interpretation or expectation of it. And it would be unreasonable to expect it to. That said, there are some things I feel like the writers stumbled on and Eowyn is one of the big ones.

(Important note: Your personal mileage may vary widely on this sort of thing and if you loved movie Eowyn I am NOT trying to convince you otherwise. Stories are wonderful, powerful things, just like your personal reactions to them. Love what you love and never apologize for it!)

It says something to me that a WWI vet from a devout Catholic background wrote about a warrior woman in a book published in 1954 that was more feminist than her modern interpretation ended up being.

I know what you’re thinking. “But Eowyn kicked ass! She swung a sword and she fought the Lord of the Nazgûl! She said “I am no man!”

Yeah, I know. And look, I’d really like to tell you that that’s enough for me. But it isn’t. Let me explain why.

irst, we need to go to the books. Eowyn in the books is a very cold, very unhappy, character. She’s been relegated to nurse maid to a sick uncle while her brother gets to go out and fight and do all the things she wants to do. Like have a life of any kind. While her brother loves her he kind of doesn’t pay attention to what’s going on with her at all. It never even occurs to him that maybe she’s not super psyched about watching over her sickly uncle all the time. He just assumes she’s cool with it because that’s what ladies do. It’s Gandalf who points out to Eomer, later, that maybe he should have thought about what it was like for her to be cooped up in Meduseld, watching her family disintegrate and the world fall apart. That she had no less of a fierce spirit than he does, just because she’s female. In the book, Eomer has a major realization after that, that he might not really have ever known his sister. This is a bit of a running theme when it comes to Eowyn.

Beyond being undervalued, Eowyn is also being stalked by a gross little man who is slowly poisoning her uncle’s mind and clearly expects to get her as a “reward” later. Eowyn isn’t stupid, she’s well aware of the danger she’s in and that she has basically no one to turn to if things go majorly south, especially once Eomer is banished. Her life is exactly what she most fears: a cage. She has a lot of very good reasons to feel trapped and bitter.

Enter Aragorn, who in the books is a lot more Arrogant Lordly Dude and a lot less Scruffy Nice Guy Reluctant Hero. In him she sees someone actually kingly, something her uncle hasn’t been in a long time. She sees a leader, someone with strength and resolve. Someone worth following into battle, which she longs to do, and maybe most notably: someone she’s not related to who isn’t tied to Rohan and the life she’s been forced to live there. She mistakes this for love but in reality it’s that she’s just so sick of wasting away and being told that her only purpose is as a doddering old man’s crutch, that he looks pretty good as a means of escape. For a while.

Now, once Gandalf fixes Theoden everyone goes off to do Important Things and sort of forgets about her. As per usual. Now that the king is better no one seems to consider what she wants out of life, what her hopes or dreams are, what she can contribute beyond helping the men be more manly. That’s got to chafe. In the book we see this much more clearly, that while Theoden has been restored to sanity, in many ways things haven’t changed for Eowyn much at all.

Still, while the films don’t go into all this nuance, we do get to see her caring for her dying cousin, dealing with Wormtongue, and the acknowledgement that life for ladies wasn’t exactly on equal footing. Unfortunately, once she meets Aragorn, things start to get wonky. Not because I have any problem with romantic storylines! I love them. And I especially love Tolkien’s particular brand of doomed, tragic, romance. Even the “happy” ones are going to end badly, as we see with Arwen.

My issue is with the way they had Eowyn moon over Aragorn in the films. And it hinges on a key scene from the book that they left out completely. In it, Aragorn tells Eowyn that she can’t come with him on The Paths of the Dead because her people need her and that renown isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be. He’s not wrong, exactly, but he basically tells her it’s her duty to stay behind, something he would never say to her uncle or brother.

And she calls him on it. Flat out. She tells him, “All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.”

Think about that for a moment. Not only is she calling him out for sexism, she lays out why it’s sexist and does a pretty damn fine job of distilling down the lot of women in this culture. To whit: if there aren’t men around, you don’t really matter, and you definitely don’t get to decide for yourself how you live OR die if you’re a lady. That’s very powerful, especially in a series that deals a lot with the trappings of war and glory from a distinctly masculine point of view.

She doesn’t come even remotely close to saying anything like that in the film, instead pleading with him out of love, giving a lot of doe eyed looks, and generally being deferential instead of defiant. It undermines her character’s strength and feminist bent. Because although she thinks she’s in love with Aragorn she has no problem telling him he’s completely full of shit. Full of sexist shit, in fact.

This matters because A. Aragorn is one of the good guys and he’s still being a complete ass B. it shows that though Eowyn may have fuzzy feelings about him she is not some spineless, weepy, floormat begging for scraps of love. She’s not going to put up with crap from anyone. This seems incredibly central to her character to me and yet…it’s not even touched on in the film. The closest we get is the line about women in that country knowing that those without swords can still die upon them and fearing neither death nor pain…but it lacks the context and direct confrontation of sexism that the book provides.

This brings me to the scene with the Lord of the Nazgûl. In the film she’s terrified, which is understandable, but they stripped out the amazing speech she gives as, scared as she is, she stands up to only the second most awful creature in the series. Don’t forget, the Lord of the Nazgûl is Sauron’s second in command. Grown men cower at the sound of his voice. He stabbed Frodo at Weathertop. He even freaks out Gandalf.

So, this terrifying monster thing has just mortally wounded her uncle and she tells it where it can stick it in one of my favorite passages in the whole series.

"“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!”

A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.”

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.”

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel.

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.”


This got distilled down to “I am no man.” Look, I know they couldn’t have just put this in verbatim, it’s got an old-timey cadence and they’d already tweaked other dialog to be less formal. But. There is so much more here than “I am no man.”

First of all, he didn’t just threaten her with death. He threatened her with horrifying, endless torture and mind rape, basically. And she laughs at him. And then she stabs him in the face. What’s more? She makes him afraid before she does it because up until then, he thought he was immortal. Whoops!

I think you lose a lot of important nuance by over simplifying it to “I am no man.”

Still, I could have lived with that except for what comes after.

See, in the book, she’s falls over onto her enemy because he’s so evil that his death nearly kills her. She’s found later on the battlefield and they think she’s dead. Eomer is incredibly upset (understandably) and ends up going off in a foul, suicidal mood, where he and the other riders chant “death, death, death” as they cut a swath through the enemy. It’s pretty bleak.

The movie, for no reason I can fathom, decides that Eowyn can’t just kill the Witch King. Nope. After this huge showdown she also needs to be chased by Tumor the Orc, an enemy we got introduced to that isn’t A. interesting B. even in the same category of terrifying as the Witch King. He’s completely beneath her as a foe at this point.

So far as I can tell he exists so that Aragorn can kill him and “save” her, without actually knowing he did so. Which is just…weird. Why would you have this amazing moment where Eowyn defeats an enemy literally no one else in Middle Earth could have…and then have her crawling away from a generic, malignant orc in the aftermath? And why does Aragorn need to save her? What does this do for either character? Other than undermine her achievement, of course.

It’s one of the most perplexing character and narrative choices/changes in the films. What’s more: I don’t think it occurred to anyone that, along with making her overly lovesick, they inadvertently damsel’d her. For me, it’s a frustrating example of casual sexism creeping in. It’s even more frustrating when you realize Tolkien, writing in a time that was quite a bit less progressive than now for women, did it better. Sticking closer to the original narrative and character would have solved this issue neatly. It stands out as pointless and tacked on.

After all of this, Eowyn ends up in the Houses of Healing and eventually meets Faramir. They develop a strong bond, one based on compassion and understanding, and we see that Faramir truly appreciates her for who she is. He knows she’s a warrior and a queen in her own right, he never talks down to her or treats her as less than his equal. We get a hint of this in the extended edition of Return of the King, and I know they didn’t really have time to do more. Yet I still miss that relationship because it says so much about both characters. Eowyn ends up discovering what real love is and finally being seen by someone for the amazing person she is.

I guess what bugs me most is that they took a legitimately “strong” female character, and by that I mean a complex, flawed, brave, and ultimately a triumphant warrior woman who has her own major arc…and reduced her down to something less than that. To me, strength in a character is about more than their ability to hit or kill things, and while Eowyn’s big moment is certainly defeating The Lord of the Nazgûl, it’s her defiance in the face of insurmountable odds that truly makes her “strong”. I wish the film version had honored that more.

Because that would have been honoring the proto-feminist character Tolkien created.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
12
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email