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Lomegill
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Post Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 24, 2006 12:36

When I read for first time "The Battle in Pelennor Field" I saw this:
He(The Witch King) now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand.

So I thought that this Gothmog is a Nazgul - the second after Witch King of Angmar. But after that i understood that the second Ringwraith is named Khamul, so if Gothmog is one of the Nazgul he will be the third... As far as I know the names of the Nazgul are not known, exept Khamul the Easterling. But isn't it logical exactly a Nazgul to lead the atack, after the Black Captain is no more on the Field? So... may we discus this Gothmog - what race is his, could he be one of the Ulair of Sauron... and other tungs about him
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 25, 2006 05:38
There's actually very little information about this Gothmog. Personally, I don't think that he was one of the Nine; rather, he was an orc, or a corrupted but living human. To me, "Gothmog" sounds more like an orc's name; perhaps he was a chief of the uruks of Mordor, the "black orcs of great strength" mentioned in Appendix A of the LOTR.
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 25, 2006 08:48
In facts the information about this Gothmog, wich I found in the books, is just the quote, that I gave
We know about the other Gothmog - Lord of Balrogs in Angband, but about the one mentioned in LotR there is nothing special.
I don't know what is the exact meaning of the name, but I think it is something like "voice of the Enemy" (Morgoth means Black Enemy of the World)... so maybe he is Black Numenorean - like Mouth of Sauron. I don't want to be just an ugly, crippled orc like in the movie.. and it is a little strange to me an Orc, even a black Uruk of Mordor to be the second Captain after the Witch King, himslef may be Haradrim or an Easterling... but again not sure - logical is he to be Nazgul - if I was a Dark Lord, I would send a Ringwarith for second leader
Ghâshburz
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 26, 2006 02:36
Even though (to my knowledge) Tolkien never specified the race of Morgul's Gothmog, whether man, orc, or Nazgul; It is my belief that he was either of black Numenorean race (as you mentioned in the earlier post), or one of the nine. While the name does sound rather orkish, and while there did exist orc captains (such as Shagrat and Gorbag), I can't imagine men (even wicked men like the Easterlings) subjecting themselves to the rule of orcs. The idea of a man being chosen in lieu of a Nazgul to be second in command over the host of Morgul is not too farfetched, for as you stated earlier the great ambassador of the Barad-dur was a man, when one would think Sauron would choose a Nazgul to be his "voice".
So it is evident that the Dark lord preferred men and Nazgul over orcs to be his generals and main leaders (perhaps because they were more trustwothy than the treacherous orcs, who made up the bulk of his army.)

Of course this is all just opinion; the way I picture the story as it were. Others perhaps could bring up arguments that would shoot my point of view in the foot.
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 27, 2006 05:14
In my eyes Gothmog could not be a Nazgul, there's never any mention of a Nazgul at the Plennor Fields besides the Witch-King. The rest could very well be off commanding/scaring in the other battles fought at the same time. If Gothmog was a Black Numenorian, he could be the captain. I personally think he was a prominent Orc or Uruk, because they have the life-span more like the Eldar. He could be 1000 years old with all the wisdom that Sauron could provide in that span of time.
Ghâshburz
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 27, 2006 12:01
I'm not sure I agree with the statement saying that Gothmog "could not be" a Nazgul. While it is true there was no mention of them in the chapter entitled "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields", their presence is mentioned in the chapter entitled "The Siege Of Gondor", which takes us all the way to the arrival of thr Rohirrim.

The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh.


[Edited on 27/2/2006 by Ghâshburz]
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 27, 2006 12:23
Yes, all of the Ringwraiths are in this battle, but in facts I think, that the second of them - Khamul of East is send to lead an army to atack the Elves of Mirkwood, so this may be another proof for the "Nazgul" Gothmog - The Witch King is no more, Khamul leads assault upon Mirkwood, and than came the third Nazgul... and for the name, well I think the Ringwariths forgot their names long time ago and even the Witch King's name didn't appear in the books. So... Gothmog could be a kind of surname, or title - in honour of the Lord of Balrogs in the Ferst Age. For example Grond - the battering-ram, used to distroy the Gates of Minas Tirith tooks its names form the weapon of the first Dark Lord - Melkor - Grond, Hammer of the Underworld... so Gothmog may be is a kind of nick-name or surname...
I really don't think that Sauron would leave the leading of this important battle to an Orc...
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 28, 2006 05:19
so Gothmog may be is a kind of nick-name or surname...
I really don't think that Sauron would leave the leading of this important battle to an Orc...


This is true. But he did trust the order of the last battle and three precious items to a Black Numenorian. Why not at the Plennor Fields? The movie depicts Gothmog as the Witch-King's servant, and likely the same could be true in the book.

And certainly all of the Orcs are not dumb (though they seem like it) but picture this: a huge Uruk-Hai (like the Great Goblin from the Hobbit), theoretically hundreds or thousands of years old. I think that would make for a worthy General!
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 28, 2006 06:19
He(The Witch King) now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand

Lieutenant... not servant of the Witch King. In facts according me in LotR there aren't too many military posts - Captain, Lieutenant, the common soldiers and of cours e the King(or the Dark lord in the other hand) is on the top of this chain of command. So Gothmog is not a servent, just a millitary leader from lower level but this is normally - the Witch King is THE Black Captain of Mordor - he is above all other dark creatures and it it is logical his lieutenants to be the other Ringwraiths - when the captain is fallen then the lieutenants are taking comand

[Edited on 28/2/2006 by Lomegill]
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 28, 2006 07:19
He(The Witch King) now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand

Lieutenant... not servant of the Witch King.


Lieutenant of Morgul and Minas Morgul is the Witch-King's place. Shagrat or Gorbag (wich one?) from Morgul bore that symbol, the moon with a death-face in it. But it probably was a Nazgul. Now the Variags of Khand, I'm a little confused on. They are described as shorter and broader, with beards and axes, sort of like men-dwarves. Anyone have a take on this?
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 28, 2006 09:36
Variags are little-known people dwelling in the land of Khand, east of Mordor, at the time of the War of the Ring. They were allied to Sauron, and their warriors were seen at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. But they are not important in this case Gorbag is an Uruk of Minas Morgul but not lieutenant(at least I can't remmember that it is mention to be one ) and Shagrat is Commander of the Tower of Cirith Ungol
As you vould see I am kind of fan of the Dark side and that's why I totally disagree with P.J.'s point of view for Gothmog
He must be at least Black Numenorian and it is pitty that Tolkien didn't specify his race

gimli1121
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: February 28, 2006 11:13
I would say that Gothmog was probably not a Nazgul, considering they were "circling above the city" and attacking the defenders throughout the battle for Minas Tirith. It is possible, of course, that the Witch King kept one Nazgul in reserve with the Variags and others, but unlikely considering his confidence and overwhelming advantage going into the battle. It would make more sense to have all the Nazgul on the attack from the beginning, causing as much chaos and fear as possible. I agree with Drauglin, then, that a definite possibility for Gothmog could be:
a huge Uruk-Hai (like the Great Goblin from the Hobbit), theoretically hundreds or thousands of years old.



It's one of those many interesting and yet frustrating little tidbits about LotR and the background mythology that is never fully explained. Just wait until you read the Book of Lost Tales. It's full of stuff like this!
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 01, 2006 07:03
Personally, I found the BoLT to be pretty fufilling, like watching deleted scenes on a DVD. The Un-finished tales however left me wanting more. Galadriel & Celeborn's chapter answered a few questions. The Cirion & Eorl chapter is awesome! But the sections on the Palantiri and the Istari were definetly unfufilling, they raise more questions then answers. Informative none-the-less.

Back on subject, to support the Nazgul theory (although I still like mine) is that the Witch-King only screamed when he died. Could any other creature beside another Nazgul interpret this obscure language spoken by him?
But if (all of) the Nazgul were there, why not Khamul? I suppose he was the leader in Dol Guldur?

Lomegill I'm a darkside fan too:evil:
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 01, 2006 04:52
I suppose he was the leader in Dol Guldur?

This is the answer of :
But if (all of) the Nazgul were there, why not Khamul?

In the same time when is the Battle of Pelenor, north in Mirkwood and Lorien Orcs are atacking the Elven forests - I think that Khamul is leading this army against the Elves - that's why he is not in Pelenor... I think I read this somwhere... so - the next Nazgul in the chain of command will lead the forces of evil... I said before - if I was a Dark Lord, I would give the command to a Nazgul - they are my most powerful allies, they have Rings of power and probably their life was longer than the life of all other my servents - so they must know how to lead an army
Drauglin, I sipposed that your nickname reminds me about Draugluin - lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband
Ghâshburz
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 02, 2006 01:21
Gorbag is an Uruk of Minas Morgul but not lieutenant(at least I can't remmember that it is mention to be one ) and Shagrat is Commander of the Tower of Cirith Ungol




Quite correct. According to the chapter entitled "The Choices of Master Samwise", Shagrat was a commander of not only the tower of Cirith Ungol, but the pass as well. Gorbag it appears from this passage was merely a captain of a company of orcs, nothing more (for it appears that Gorbag, while in the pass, is underneath even Shagrat, and reports to him.)

'Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?'
'Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shagrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?'
'Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass. So speak civil. What's your report?'
'Nothing.'
'Hai! hai! yoi!' A yell broke into the exchanges of the leaders.

I think that Khamul is leading this army against the Elves - that's why he is not in Pelenor... I think I read this somwhere... so - the next Nazgul in the chain of command will lead the forces of evil...


Speaking of Unfinished Tales, I was just reading part of it again about the "Hunt for the Ring", and saw that it said that Khamul had with him in Dol Guldur another Nazgul that served as a messenger. Of course Unfinished tales has so many conflicting notes and phrases that it cannot be trusted as a true source for everything, but if it is true that Khamul was leading the attack of the elves in Lorien (and perhaps Mirkwood...?), perhaps this other Nazgul was with him...? Leaving but six Nazgul at the Pelennor Fields after the Witch-king's demise...?

Edit: Oh, and dark side fan here too, guys

[Edited on 2/3/2006 by Ghâshburz]
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 02, 2006 03:06
This name was definetly a third or fourth choice BTW.... Charcaroth Draugulin and many more already taken

GhazBurz is a good one though:evil:

Read the chapter last night. I was thinking.... there had to be Nazgul commanding the armies of Sauron.... so we have one (or more) in DolGuldur, one attacking Thiranduil, one in the Dale/Erebor area, and one for Rivendell's siege. That with the Witch-King makes five.

I still seriously doubt the Nazgul were all about the Plennor because: one, when the Witch King dies, no Nazgul were summoned at all, they had leisure in that area of the Plennor for an hur or so. Also, the coming of Aragorn really dismayed the armies of Mordor, there was no "counter measure" of Nazgul 'stirring up' his armies. (with fear or whatever.) He, Imrahil, and Eomer were un-harmed, and the army of the west has a very decisive victory with minimal loss. If there was 30,000 of the enemy @ the Plennor, then the exchange was about 10 to 1. Any other time the Nazgul attack or lead an army, Mordor completely owns te battle. Could the Dunedain and Aragorn be enough (with the other armies of course) to fend off at least 2 Nazgul? Glorfindel and Aragorn alone did it, but that might have gone bad but for the flood of Bruinen.
Ghâshburz
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 05, 2006 06:34
Could the Dunedain and Aragorn be enough (with the other armies of course) to fend off at least 2 Nazgul?


That's hard to say, Drauglin. Aragorn and the four hobbits withstood an attack by four ringwraiths and the Witch-king while they were in the wilderness; but that may have been only because of certain factors, such as:

1) The ringwraiths were far from Mordor and their power may have been lessened. While in Eriador it seemed they were little more than Shadows of fear, while closer to home (such as at the Pelennor Fields) they were great captains and deadly foes upon winged beasts. Or...

2) The ringwraiths merely fled because they thought their objective complete when the Witch-king pierced Frodo with the morgul-blade, believing that it would be a matter of time before he succombed to their power.

There is no doubt that the ringwraiths were deadly wherever their location or whatever their number, but they were not without fear. They could be driven off/overcome by a mighty hero, though (of course) not destroyed. Boromir withstood (at least) one ringwraith at the bridge in Osgiliath according to his speech at the Council of Elrond. Then again, the Nazgul scattered the Dunedain rangers who were guarding the Shire when they were there searching for the Ring.
Having said all that, there is little doubt in my mind that if any warrior were able to withstand some ringwraiths (not all nine together, mind) it would be Aragorn. Maybe.
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 13, 2006 05:14
I was thinking this weekend, while reading the books, about names of enemies and such. Now the 2 Nazgul we know are Kahmul shadow of the east, and the sorta nameless Witch King of Angmar. Now Grond and Gothmog are named after a weapon and creature of old, respectively. Gothmog is certainly not a name for a man, and the Nazgul were men after all. It seems this name would be applied to a creature of some sort, Orc, Uruk, etc. because Gothmog was the lord of Balrogs.

Opinions anyone? Did Sauron name the Ringwraiths anew when he gained control of them? If so, I could see one of them being named Gothmog, but if not, then I'll have to stick with the 'creature' opinion.
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 17, 2006 12:26
Yes, that is my opinion - it is nickname - kind of "Respect to Gothmog"... maybe they were friends (Sau and Gothmog the Balrog)... and Grond is "Respect to the Boss"

We know the name of Khamul but...
Witch King is really kind of nameless... even the mightiest of the Nazgul, he hasn't his own name... so maybe Sau gave names for all the Nazgul, when they became his servents ... Sau, himslef has many names - Sauron, Gorthaur, Necromacer, Artanno, Annatar e.t.c....
I remmember something from the movie... some words of Gollum: "We even forget our name"(ROTK)... i don't remmember if this is in the book but - The One Ring makes Smeagol to forget his name, maybe the Nine Rings of Men could do such a thing to their ring-bearers? If it is so, then it is logical Sau to give them new names... and what names are more suitable than the names of the evil allies of the old
shadow1
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 20, 2006 11:57
I remember reading somewhere that Gothmog was a ruined man, a minion of Sauron, as is the Mouth of Sauron. Their lifespan would have been extended by the dark arts and prolonged as with the Nazgul. I have also read that many Tolkien scholars have argued that they may have been the missing Blue Wizards in a corrupted form. Tolkien wrote that the Blue Wizards went off to the far East and may have been captured and returned to Mordor. I find this very interesting indeed.
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 21, 2006 04:37
I have also read that many Tolkien scholars have argued that they may have been the missing Blue Wizards in a corrupted form. Tolkien wrote that the Blue Wizards went off to the far East and may have been captured and returned to Mordor. I find this very interesting indeed.


Very cool concept.... the unfinished tales of the istari claim the same thing about them going east and never returning.... where they may have 'started cults and been the founders of schools of magic' (schools meaning groups of practicioners).
I like this idea for MoS and Gothmog .... they (blue wizards) would most likely have (or be given) no lesser positions for thousands of years of service.
shadow1
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 21, 2006 11:45
.... they (blue wizards) would most likely have (or be given) no lesser positions for thousands of years of service.


True Drauglin... As Istari, even though minor they still had powers not dissimilar to Sauron himself, making them very powerful indeed. If they could have been turned to darkness they would make very handy middle management of Sauron's forces. Their were some other letters from Tolkien that mentioned the possibility the Saruman himself captured and corrupted the Blue Wizards, or maybe even killed them. This I imagine would help throw the balance of good - Evil out of kilter.
Ghâshburz
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 21, 2006 11:47
I have also read that many Tolkien scholars have argued that they may have been the missing Blue Wizards in a corrupted form.


It is possible that Gothmog could have been Istari (even though I think it unlikely), but if we are to view LotR as total canon, it actually states that the race of the Mouth of Sauron was black Numenorean (human), so he could not have been Istari.
Lomegill
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 21, 2006 12:38
No, no... it is not logical... The Blue Wizards are pore powerfull then the Nazgul, so the Black Captain must be not one of the Nazgul, but the same corrupted Blue Wizard... not "lieutenant of Morgul", but something more!
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 22, 2006 03:24
True, MoS was a black Numenorian. Now Gandalf was the most powerful Istari, but he didn't even know if he could face the Witch-King. So having a blue wiz 2nd in command does make sense there... I remember reading about Saruman and the Blue Wiz's. Unless he became evil hundreds of years earlier then thought, I doubt he killed Allatar and Pallondo.
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 22, 2006 06:47
I don't think that, Gothmog was either one of the Blue Wizards, although the possibility of them having gone into Sauron's service is also referred to in the essay "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales. What Tolkien himself said (stated in a note to the essay) was that, the Blue Wizards
went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to "enemy-occupied" lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways, and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

And, in a late writing about the wizards, he names them Morinehtar and Rómestámo, and tells that they went into the East and
must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age nd Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East... who would in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West. ("Last Writings" in HoME 12)
Drauglin
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: March 22, 2006 09:52
must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age nd Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East... who would in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West. ("Last Writings" in HoME 12)


Dang, I need to pick that book up (that and a hundred others)
but I'm sure that in the Tale of Years the Istari didn't come to ME until 1000-1500 years of the TA.

Thanks for the quote from the 'Istari' chapter, the jist of it escaped me.

I find it interesting that the Gothmog discussion turned towards these two, because they are both (arguably) the most 'open to interpretation' of Tolkien's characters. We could all speculate and post obscure quotes till the cows come home and not get any further. (But we do, that's why CoE rox!)

Anyhoo, these are 2 things that a 'Tolkien compilation' book or a Tale of Years movie might have a problem with. It seems to me that you could handle the Blue Wiz'z or Gothmog many different ways, without comprimising the original medium.
BabidiBuu
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: June 23, 2010 03:39
Yeah, Gothmog sounds like an Orkish/Orcish sounding name.. Mind you, i've never read the Return of the King yet, but im afraid im stuck with thinking he is an orc.

Trying to think.. Could be possible that Gothmog is a, umm.. Boldog? Boldug? Buldog? A Maia stuck in Orc-Form? Cant remember how it's spelled.. I read it on the 'One Wiki to rule them all'


Come to think of it, Gothmog does kinda look like a Bull Dog..
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Post RE: Gothmog, but not the Balrog...
on: July 13, 2010 09:48
BabidiBuu, are you thinking of the Balrog? I think the book would have mentioned it if Gothmog was one.

Me, I'm not concerned with the power/race graph of characters in LOTR,
it's never that simple. The desire to categorise should be resisted. To name something is to have power over it, and that leads me to think Sauron would have renamed any underling, so it doesn't help much After all, who wants a lieutenant called Tarquin?
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