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Lex
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Post possessive case - dual endings
on: March 16, 2006 10:08
I've read lesson 12 of COE's workbook, possessive case, but it doesn't show the dual ending(s), only the singular and the plural ones.

Please, are there possessive endings for dual words? Wich are they?

Thanx everybody!
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: March 16, 2006 11:43
The ending is -twa for t-duals and -va for u-duals:
alda -> alduva
ramba -> rambatwa
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: March 18, 2006 04:58
are these plural endings added to the dual word or do they have a dual meaning by themselves, being added to the singular word?
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: March 18, 2006 05:18
The endings for u-duals are always applied to the u-dual nominative. But t-duals have special endings and these are applied to the singular nominative (except the genitive -o):
nom: aldu rambat
gen: alduo rambato
poss: alduva rambatwa
dat: aldun rambant
loc: aldussë rambatsë
all: aldunna rambanta
abl: aldullo rambalto
instr: aldunen rambanten
resp: aldus rambates
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: March 18, 2006 05:31
thank you again! this was kinda helpful
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 07, 2006 01:51
a question concerning locatives:

lesson 14 says the dual ending for locative is -tsë and gives as example ostotsë
osto is an u-dual word (it has a t)
however, two posts above, the word aldussë is given as an example of locative for u-duals

which are the correct forms? ostotsë and aldatsë. or ostussë and aldussë?

[Edited on 7/4/2006 by Lex]

[Edited on 8/4/2006 by Lex]
thorsten
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 08, 2006 05:41
Nobody knows for sure (not even dirk_math0 what the actual rule for the choice of t and u dual is. It follows that we don't know what the correct forms are. Tolkien mentions 'euphony' in Letters:427 as the decision criterion, but that is not a very clear-cut rule, as it means 'use what sounds better'.
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 08, 2006 06:09
I never said that I know the rule for the choice of t- and u-dual, so please don't put words in my mouth. I only gave 2 examples in which I didn't say that alda doesn't have a t-dual, or ramba doesn't have a u-dual.

In the lessons on this site (which btw aren't written by me) the rule of thumb of the Ardalambion course is followed:
- words containing a t- or d-sound and body parts use a u-dual
- all others use a t-dual
But this is only a rule of thumb, no law of the Medians and Persians.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 08, 2006 07:04
sorry guys...

back to the question (just to make sure), so that means both -tsë and -ssë may be used for t-duals and u-duals alike, right?

forgive me if i'm asking something stupid now (think i'm getting confused)

[Edited on 8/4/2006 by Lex]
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 08, 2006 08:05
No, when using a t-dual, you use -tsë:
ramba -> rambatsë

With a u-dual the ordinary ending -ssë:
alda -> aldussë
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 08, 2006 10:06
i got it, thanks!!

one final question:
does that mean the example given in the lesson, ostotsë, is "wrong"? (i mean according this rule, although, as i can see now, there is a rule for the choice of t- and u-dual)

[Edited on 8/4/2006 by Lex]
thorsten
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 09, 2006 09:46
> With a u-dual the ordinary ending -ssë:

Precious few duals are actually attested in Tolkien's material. Off-hand I can remember et i péti from VT47 (a late source) which is completely at odds with either the concept of a t-dual and u-dual but agrees well with aldaru (VT27:23) in having a plural and a dual marker.

The duals are not a very well attested field, and even the small number of examples shows considerable variation in the formation. I think it is wrong to write posts as if there would be no shadow of a doubt how to inflect dual forms.

((Mod edit gwendeth))

[Edited on 10/4/2006 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/4/2006 by thorsten]
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 11, 2006 07:47
humm... i have to agree

but my question concerns CoE's workbook rules (i was not very clear before, sorry ), so the point is:

according to the rules presented on the workbook (in lesson 3), osto would be an u-dual word, for it contains a t, so it would become ostu in dual form.
ok...

lesson 15 says the locative dual ending is -tsë... given that (and considering the rules presentend in lesson 3), it's not clear enough for me, for i can understand either:

1) -tsë is used for both t- and u-duals, meaning the example given, ostotsë, is right (since it doesn't matter if osto is a t- or u-dual); or

2) -tsë is used only for t-duals, meaning (although it's not said in the lesson) -ssë is used for u-duals, as dirk_math said, wich implies that ostotsë is a wrong example, being ostussë the correct form.

wich one should i consider?

thank you!! and sorry if i'm hard at understanding this

[Edited on 11/4/2006 by Lex]

[Edited on 11/4/2006 by Lex]

[Edited on 11/4/2006 by Lex]
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 11, 2006 11:50
As said earlier: there are no hard an fast rules when to use a t-dual or to use a u-dual.
But in any case when using a t-dual the ending is -tsë and with a u-dual it is -u+ssë.
The u-duals have after the u the normal endings in the dual, the t-duals have special endings.

So when using osto this would indeed give
t-dual: ostotsë
u-dual: ostussë

When we use the rule of thumb of Ardalambion and the CoE workbook then it would preferably be a u-dual so ostussë

A good overview can be found at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/quenya_noun_tables.html
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
thorsten
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 11, 2006 08:52
Is there any atttested example of a u-dual inflected for case?

In Helge Fauskanger's noun table I find only:

In the case of a u-dual, however, duality is already sufficiently expressed by the suffix -u, so the normal case endings with no t are (presumably) used

and all inflected forms are asterisked as Helge's guesses. Can you please tell me if there's any additional information I'm not aware of which would indicate that u-duals don't repeat the dual ending and would give reason to prefer *ostusse over *ostutse?
dirk_math
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 11, 2006 10:45
From now on, I will no longer react to your messages.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lex
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Post RE: possessive case - dual endings
on: April 17, 2006 11:30
thank you both guys for replying to my messages
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