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pv
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Post Beowulf
on: October 15, 2006 09:47
Beowulf was one of Tolkien's favourite works of literature. This thread is for all things Beowulf.

We have 2 articles on this site, which discuss the ways in which Tolkien was influenced by Beowulf :
Beowulf and the Hobbit, by Ringhilwen, and
The Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons - an overview, by Atalante.

I'll start off the discussion by copying a few posts from a discussion on Beowulf that we had in the Realm of Vaire, and then you can take it where you will!

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
Updated links

[Edited on 03/26/2014 by tarcolan]
http://monstersandcritics.wordpress.com/
pv
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: October 15, 2006 09:54
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Dolwen :
Welcome Weavers to the Realm of Vairë's Beowulf discussion.

Beowulf is an Old English poem about a hero named Beowulf who travels across the sea to save the Danes from a monster called Grendel, then again from Grendel's mother. Later, he returns home and eventually becomes king. In old age he dies saving his own people from a dragon.

Most scholars believe that Beowulf was written between the middle of the seventh century and the end of the tenth century A.D. Only one copy of the poem exists and is now in the British Museum.

Beowulf has been translated and debated by many different scholars throughout the years. Many of the earliest scholars believed that Beowulf had no value as a poem but only as a historical document to be studied. However, J.R.R. Tolkien's essay on Beowulf changed forever how the poem was viewed and it started being read for its literary value.

This map is from Readings on Beowulf, to give an idea of the locations in the poem.
Image
pv :
Hope you're all enjoying Beowulf, if you're reading it!

Here's a quote on epics in general that talks about the profound sense of tragedy that pervades most epics. *Spoiler Warning* - this quote reveals the ending of Beowulf, so don't read it if you'd like to keep yourself in suspense!
...the epic vision is a tragic one. Jasper Griffin, discussing a translation of Gilgamesh in The New York Review of Books, recently remarked "There is no happy ending, even for mighty heroes who are close to the gods … This is the true epic vision … An older wisdom, and a truer poetry, sees that the highest nobility and the deepest truth are inseparable, in the end, from failure - however heroic - from defeat, and from death." (NYRB, 9 March, 2006). So Beowulf dies in the moment of his triumph against the dragon, and King Arthur and his knights of the Round Table go down to defeat in their final battle, and as Hjalti says in Sagas and Myths of the Northmen in this collection, "It is not possible to bend fate, nor can one stand against nature."

... The epic is not a place where anyone lives happily ever after; it obeys a mightier realism than that.
The quotation is from this article on epics by Philip Pullman.
Dolwen :
Great quote pv. I have a couple quotes that I would like to share also.
The essence of the tragedy in Beowulf is an intense vision of what it is that sustains a human society and life itself and what it is that destroys them.
"Alan A. Lee- Golden Hall and Earth-Dragon"

And of course Tolkien from The Monsters and The Critics
Beowulf is not a primitive poem; it is a late one, using the materials (then still plentiful) preserved from a day already changing and passing, a time that has now forever vanished, swallowed in oblivion; using them for a new purpose, with a wider sweep of imagination, if with a less bitter and concentrated force... it is in fact written in a language that after many centuries has still essential kinship with our own,it was made in this land, and moves in our northern world beneath our northern sky, and for those who are native to that tongue and land, it must ever call with a profound appeal- until the dragon comes.
pv :

As I believe it's out of print in certain parts of the world now, I'll post a summary of Tolkien's essay on Beowulf, "The Monsters and the Critics," sometime soon.

In the meantime, if you'd like to see a picture of the original Beowulf manuscript, click here.
pv :
The Beowulf story has also been made into a movie - you can check out the official film website here, and watch the trailer, too!

And here's a picture of Beowulf himself!
Dolwen :
Online version of Beowulf for those who haven't been able to get a copy of the book.
pv :
There’s also a very readable, often humorous, translation in simple language by Dr. David Breeden which can be read online ...

Here are the links to each episode :

The adventure begins here!

In episode two, Grendel attacks.

In episode three, Beowulf comes to fix the problem.

In episode four, Grendel meets Beowulf!

In episode five we hear many speeches.

In episode six Grendel’s mother gets mad!

In episode seven a sword fails and Beowulf takes a dive.

In episode eight we learn how to be good warriors.

In episode nine a dragon gets angry.

In episode ten Beowulf suits up for another fight.

In episode eleven Beowulf shows what he’s made of.

In episode twelve Beowulf meets his maker.
Dolwen :
The first time I read Beowulf was Seamus Heaney's tranlation. It took me a few pages to get the feel of the poem and I was a little confused by all of the back stories and what they meant. But I really got into it and couldn't put it down. I think it is a very exciting story and I really enjoy reading it. I think it is like LotR in the way that with every reading you discover something that you didn't notice or understand before. I also like seeing familiar things from Tolkien's work, even if it is just finding a familiar name.

pv :
I'm reading the Seamus Heaney translation, and I found that the very beginning of the story reminded me of Tolkien - Shield Sheafson's* funeral boat was probably the inspiration for Boromir's funeral boat in LotR. And the great hall Heorot also reminded me of Tolkien's Meduseld.

* also known as Scield Scefing in other translations.
Dolwen :
When Beowulf returns home there is a back story of a King Offa and his son was named Eomer. Another thing that comes to mind is how the dragon in Beowulf was awakened by a thief taking a cup, Bilbo in The Hobbit.
pv :
Some critics have asked whether intelligent people can take Beowulf seriously, because it's all about monsters - a man fighting monsters of various shapes and sizes.

Tolkien had an answer to this, but before I go into that, I just wanted to ask you all how you personally feel about the monsters. Are you able to take them seriously, or do you (as the critics did) find them rather silly?
Dolwen :
I didn't have a problem at all taking the monsters seriously. But in our modern world, fantasy is more accepted and isn't just for children's tales anymore. I think it is easier for us to accept monsters in a story than it was when the critics in Tolkien's time thought them silly.
pv :
Good point, Dolwen! Attitudes towards monsters have changed since Tolkien's time. In fact, Tolkien himself was influential in changing people's attitudes towards monsters and dragons.

Here is a synopsis of Tolkien’s essay, The Monsters and the Critics, from this site…
The Monsters and the Critics was a lecture given in 1936 to the British Academy. This lecture caused a total shift of focus in the way scholars viewed the Old English poem, Beowulf.

In the post-New Age world, it's hard to grasp what Tolkien was refuting. Today, the prevailing wisdom is that folklore and mythology are the keys to spiritual enlightenment. They are handy watering places for us as we follow our Road To Bliss. Tales of magic, monsters and the like nourish us, for they clue us in to bits of reality that we cannot grasp through the scientific method.

In Tolkien's day, however, scholars held that mythology was the product of a primitive mentality. Poems such as Beowulf were considered useful mainly as sources of old English vocabulary words and could hardly be considered great art.

Moreover, they felt that there was something childish about mythology. The Beowulf poet, they said, had lowered himself by focusing on Beowulf's struggle with Grendel, Grendel's Mom and the Dragon when he could have been detailing the human interactions of Beowulf's tribe, the Geats, or perhaps giving an account of their military and diplomatic history.

The consensus was that the poem was irrevocably marred because the Beowulf poet's brilliant language did not fit his low theme. Also, the important elements of the poem (wars, divided loyalties, and grand passions) were unaccountably kept at the periphery of the narrative, while the "trivial" stuff was placed at its heart. The focus on the monsters, they said, was "an inexplicable blunder of taste."

Tolkien, however, argues that in his encounters with these creatures from Hell, Beowulf confronts evil in its most pure form. He writes, "It is not an irritating accident that the tone of the poem is so high and its theme is so low. It is the theme in its deadly seriousness that begets the dignity of tone."

Even in these essays, the storyteller is at work. Tolkien keeps moving from academic, critical language into allegory, painting pictures with words. In arguing that Beowulf was not merely a historical document to be mined for Old English words and customs, he invents the story of a man who inherits a field filled with ancient stones.

The man builds a tower. Later, critics come and knock down the tower so that they can analyze ancient inscriptions on the stones. They criticize the man for building the tower and remain completely unaware that "from the top of that tower the man had been able to look out upon the sea."

The Monsters and the Critics is not written for a general audience. It was written for scholars who had, among other things, a knowledge of the Old English and Latin languages and a familiarity with Beowulf and the critical analyses it has spawned. Tolkien's language in this essay is rich and allusive. It's not a text that one can breeze through. (Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf with its parallel English and Old English texts was a huge help in following the arguments.)
pv :
I'd just like to say a bit more about The Monsters and the Critics...

Tolkien was particularly interested in the theme of Beowulf, which he describes as follows :
[The author of Beowulf] is still concerned primarily with man on earth, rehandling in a new perspective an ancient theme: that man, each man and all men, and all their works shall die. A theme no Christian need despise. Yet this theme plainly would not be so treated, but for the nearness of a pagan time. The shadow of its despair, if only as a mood, as an intense emotion of regret, is still there. The worth of defeated valour in this world is deeply felt. As the poet looks back into the past, surveying the history of kings and warriors in the old traditions, he sees that all glory (or as we might say 'culture' or 'civilization') ends in night.
Tolkien, in The Monsters and the Critics talks about the pre-Christian attitude to life. Before man developed faith in a just God who would defend him against evil, he saw life in terms of a constant struggle against the forces of evil, which inevitably ended in defeat and death. But although man is ultimately doomed to death and defeat he is still respected for valiantly resisting the forces of evil as far as he can. As Tolkien puts it,

"The worth of defeated valour in this world is deeply felt."

This theme fascinated Tolkien, and it is the theme of much of his own work.

(This thread in the Book Discussion Forum, discusses the theme of fallen valour in Tolkien's own work.)

So that was all about Tolkien's view of Beowulf.


[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
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Ilandir
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: November 29, 2006 09:53
This will definately make an interesting topic to discuss about! Thanks pv for bringing this up!

I just finished reading Beowulf the other day, and I must say it's really great! It's not at all boring. I read the version by J.Clark Hall (it's also got a lengthy introduction about the Old English Verse and History by J.R.R. Tolkien himself!).

It's a great epic and was wondering whether this topic will continue to discuss such epic, since replies seem to have died down quite abit now. :/

Btw, shall we be discussing also, 'The Finnsburg Fragment'? I know it's seperated from Beowulf, but another Fragment that tells the tale about Finn is included as a story teller within Beowulf.

Thanks,
Ilandir

[Edited on 29/11/2006 by Ilandir]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: November 29, 2006 12:36
I don't see why we can't discuss the Finnesburg fragment too

I'm not sure what to say about Beowulf, hence my lack of contribution here so far. I love it, really I do. I've read several versions, and I'm utterly in love with Seamus Heaney's. But I don't know enough about it to come up with clever situations to discuss, apart from continual amusement about Tolkien borrowing so much from it for Meduseld and the Rohirrim!
Ilandir
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: December 17, 2006 08:08
Here's my own personal view regards the character of Beowulf:

Even though he may be compared to the character of Aragorn, regards his heroism, courage, strength and determination, I still think that in the story, he boasted too much about his ability. He took pride in being able to defeat his enemy and so, I see him as not being a 'perfect' heroic character (the way we imagine heroes in other stories).

Is there anyone else who has the same view about this?

Thanks,
Ilandir
Dolwen
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: December 17, 2006 02:43
I know what you mean. I was kind of put off by Beowulf's boasting when I first read the poem too. Anyway, when I was doing research on Beowulf I read a book Readings on Beowulf and it had a section about the boasting. It said that the warriors boast had two purposes. One as proof of old battles, more like a guarantee that they could handle the situation. Two was a vow, promising to do whatever it was that the warrior said he could do. Boasting publicly meant that the warrior had to go through with it and couldn't get out of it. I thought it was interesting and made me understand more what the purpose of the boasting was other than pride.

pv replied: Yes, his boasts are referred to as "formal boasts," which means that they serve a ceremonial purpose. Beowulf's actions do seem to be motivated by a desire to help people in trouble, which is quite a heroic quality. But I was a bit startled by the boasting, too, when I first read it.

How did you feel about all the blood and gore in the poem? Severed arms on display, severed heads lying around, etc. I was a bit surprised that Tolkien appears to have enjoyed Beowulf. It's almost like Tolkien saying that he enjoys Stephen King!

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
Celedë_Anthaas
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: December 29, 2006 01:31
Well, I haven't actually learned OE. I can understand bits of it when I read it (I speak three Germanic languages fluently-ish - English, Norwegian and Dutch - and know some Old Norse as well).
The copy of Beowulf I have has glossaries, which really helps It's called - hang on *runs off to get it* - Beowulf; A Student Edition. Edited by George Jack. It also includes the Finnsburh fragment.
While reading I wrote down a translation at the same time, just to get the 'general idea'. I didn't really bother about grammar or anything, I'm planning on doing that the next time I read it For now, I'm content with knowing what's going on
Dolwen
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: January 12, 2007 12:55
Has anyone else seen the movie Beowulf and Grendel? I watched the trailer online last year and thought that it looked really good. I couldn't get it in the U.S. so I had to order it from Canada. I hate to say I was a bit disappointed because they changed so much. Just wondering if anyone else had seen it and what you thought.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: January 17, 2007 08:01
Yesterday I recieved from Amazon "Teach Yourself Old English" with book and CD. I am impressed and delighted.There are 20 lessons and they use extant texts throughout including poems, riddles, bible stories, legal documents and ... here is a newsflash

Her waes Eadward gehalgod to cinge on Wincestre ... (coronation of Edward the Confessor) In just one lesson I have learned so much about the spelling and pronunciation, and once you know a few things, you can recognise the meanings of the words.

gehalgod for instance looks really odd, but when you know that g at the beginnings and ends of words is a y and in the middle is like a guttural Dutch g you start to see the word hallowed. Much nicer than consecrated. The ge- is a past tense prefix as in German, and I'm guessing that it became y in middle-english (ybounden p.t. of bound) and eventually a (went a-hunting) before being dropped altogether.

See ... it's really got me going ... There is an excellent reading list at the back and recommendations for further study. Have fun.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: January 18, 2007 05:16
Thanks for the info cirdaneth. I will have to check into it.


Indeed, thanks alot for that information cirdaneth.

Regards your post about the film 'Beowulf and Grendel' Dolwen, I was just going to post to ask whether anyone has seen it and would give any comments about it! hehe

I saw the trailer and I thought it looked really good. Even the mood and atmosphere match with those of the book. I haven't seen it yet, but would like to, even though they might have changed things.

So, on the whole (excluding the changed storyline), did you like the film Dolwen?

Thanks,
Ilandir
Dolwen
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: January 19, 2007 03:34
Yes, it was well done and I think if I hadn't read the poem first I would have liked the movie more. Yes, the mood and atmosphere were perfect and the actors were good. Even though I was disappointed I still thought it was a good movie and my husband who had never even heard of Beowulf before really liked the movie. I definiltely think you should see it.
RiverWoman
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: January 19, 2007 04:31
I watched the movie last night (SciFi channel) and I really didn't think much of it. The story line was too different, the costumes were awful. The exploding cross-bow was absurd, even small details, like having a couple dance what looked like a fox-trot together, were so completely anachronistic it made me want to scream and throw things at the TV. I ended up turning it off and going to bed 15 minutes before it was over.
RavenLady
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: February 18, 2007 10:05
Ilandir wrote:
He took pride in being able to defeat his enemy and so, I see him as not being a 'perfect' heroic character (the way we imagine heroes in other stories).
Tolkien makes an interesting point about Beowulf's pride:
"Beowulf does more than he need, eschewing weapons in order to make his struggle with Grendel a 'sporting' fight: which will enhance his personal glory; though it will put him in unnecessary peril, and weaken his chances of ridding the Danes of an intolerable affliction. But Beowulf has no duty to the Danes, he is still a subordinate with no responsibility downwards; and his glory is also the honor of his side, of the Geatas; above all, as he himself says, it will redound to the credit of the lord of his allegiance, Hygelac."
I don't know . . . it makes sense that Beowulf's pride isn't simply personal, and he doesn't have the same responsibility to the Danes that he does to Hygelac, but it still bothers me. Tolkien goes on to say that Beowulf ignored his responsibilities later, though, after he became king:
"He will not deign to lead a force against the dragon, as wisdom might direct even a hero to do; for, as he explains in a long 'vaunt,' his many victories have relieved him of fear . . . he is saved from defeat, and the essential object, destruction of the dragon, only achieved by the loyalty of a subordinate."
(Quotes from the afterword to 'The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth' in The Tolkien Reader.)

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
Ilandir
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: February 18, 2007 10:14
Interesting remarks RavenLady I'm glad you pointed them out.

Yes I guess I have to agree with what Tolkien said about Beowulf's character changing after his fights, though I still believe that the way I see a true hero is more of a courageous person with little boastfulness. A typical example of what I mean is the character of Aragorn (although the movie version not the book version of the character).

Not sure if I explained myself clearly! hehe

Thanks, Ilandir

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: February 09, 2008 10:08
ED: This, and the next two posts were moved here from "Beowulf and LotR" which has been deleted.

ermmmmm it was me LOL I always forget to sign my own articles in the Library!

and ok, as you don't expect us to do your work for you, here's some more ideas (and sorry for suggesting that before - some people *do* though, and I don't like it!)

- the battle of the hero against himself occurs both in LotR and Beowulf. As Jane Chance puts it:
"Because the Fellowship is burdened with the responsibility of bearing the Ring and because its presence attracts evil, the greatest threat to the Fellowship and its mission comes not from without but within. The hero must realize that he can become a monster. The two books of the Fellowship trace the process of this realization: the first book centers on the presentation of evil as external and physical, requiring physical heroism to combat it; and the second book centers on the presentation of evil as internal and spiritual, requiring a spiritual heroism to combat it. The hero matures by coming to understand the character of good and evil—specifically, by descending into an underworld and then ascending into an overworld, a natural one in the first book and a supernatural one in the second. These two levels correspond to the two levels—Germanic and Christian—of Beowulf and The Hobbit. For Frodo, as for Beowulf and Bilbo, the ultimate enemy is himself."
- I always wonder whether one could compare the religious aspects of the works. Beowulf is a pagan work with a Christian viewpoint stamped over the top of it, and LotR is set in a pre-Christian world, but with Tolkien's own Christianity colouring it.

- dragons! Tolkien loved dragons. Tolkien wanted to write books with dragons in. Beowulf has a kickass dragon. So does The Hobbit and The Silmarillion

- one-to-one contests - Frodo and Sam vs Shelob / Beowulf vs Grendel's mother

There Maybe those might prove some interesting leads to follow

[Edited on 9/2/2008 by cirdaneth]
Luthien_Aranel
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: February 09, 2008 10:11
Marvellous job on the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons - an overview!
I understand completely what you mean about you don't want to write the essay for me. So I've been thinking of ideas as well.
While I was reading your overview I noticed the quote right above the bold words "Rohirric/ Anglo-Saxon mead-hall customs". The quote was "Not long shall stand the high hall which Brego son of Eorl built. Fire shall devour the high seat."
I reminded me exactly of the quote from Beowulf about Herot saying "that towering place, gable and huge, stood waiting for time too pass, for war to begin, for flames to leap high as the feud that would light them and Herot to burn."
Just the similarities of both mead halls being prophesied being burned by fire was interesting, I couldn’t write a paragraph about it, but I thought I could tie it into fate.

I remember when I first started reading Beowulf and I noticed that they said ring-giver a lot. I jokingly thought they had an obsession with rings, and lead me to think about the nine men who were given rings, yet how they were corrupted by them. Though in Beowulf the ‘ring-giving’ symbolized something more along the lines of loyalty, and honour. Yet I couldn’t help but think of the nine mortal kings, and how they turned into the ring-wraiths, and why, because they were given gifts, the rings, and it corrupted them. Treasures seem to do that to men, they pay attention more to the ‘stuff’ then the cause. Hrothgar does mention to Beowulf not to hold onto materials because you can’t bring them to heaven, and he tells the tale of another king would was cruel and cared more about the things he owned then his people, that morally just seems similar to the idea Tolkien wrote about the ring-wraith, they were just presented differently.

Another comparison, though I think this is really stretching it, is the comparisons between Aragorn and Beowulf. True there are most likely more differences than similarities but here is my thought.
Higlac mentioned to Beowulf in a round about way that no matter what he did he would never be greater than a king, until he himself was king. Elrond tells Aragorn that he can not marry Arwen until he proves himself, becomes king. We the reader see both of these men greater than kings (before they are kings), yet still they aren’t accepted that way to others. Another comparison is that they both started as ‘nobodies’. It is mentioned somewhere towards chapter 31 in Beowulf that Beowulf was a ‘nobody’ and he rose to be something great, even king. Aragorn we know is the heir to Isildur, but many know him as just a simple ranger from the north, a ‘nobody’. He too becomes a king. Both men seem to have fantasy abnormalities, just as, in a crude way of saying it, at an old age both are able to fight monsters. Look at Aragorn in LotR and then Beowulf was quite old when he fought the dragon. Both are reminded of how men can be corrupted by treasures, whether by ancestral relations (like Isildur and Aragorn), or just by stories of the past (With Hrothgar tell Beowulf about Hermod)
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Post RE: Beowulf
on: February 09, 2008 10:14
It is mainly Rohan that crossing the gap between Beowulf and LotR (and we have 2 articles which include discussion of the similarities - Beowulf and the Hobbit and The Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons - an overview).

But there are others. Go forth and find them! (I don't think we should quite do all your essay for you! )

Links updated

[Edited on 03/26/2014 by tarcolan]
pv
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on: March 24, 2014 10:29
Tolkien was a very humane, ethical sort of person, as we can tell from his books. Which leads one to wonder why he enjoyed reading a grisly tale like Beowulf, which consists of pure, non-stop butchery. There's no accounting for tastes!
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on: March 25, 2014 12:27
Tolkien was also very fascinated with what he (later) called the northern theory of courage. Take Ragnarök, "Fate of the Gods" or "Twilight of the Gods". It is foretold to them, they know that they will lose in this fight (Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki are mentioned explicitly in Wikipedia). Point is, they don't care. They have no hope ultimately, but they do not need hope. Same goes for (almost) all of the Nordic heroes - probably many of which would not be looked on very kindly in our days. The whole Silmarillion is a theme on the Noldor lead by Fëanor having no chance against Morgoth. Only when Eärendil pleaded the cause of both Elves and Men did the Valar decide to once more go to war against Morgoth.

And the LotR. The quest of the nine companions never really had a realistic chance of being achieved. They had no hope - but they did not care (Sam above all). But ...
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pv
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on: March 26, 2014 06:18
I read Beowulf because I'm a Tolkien fan, and I guess I went into it looking for Tolkien in it. The thing that hits you most about Tolkien's work is the moral force, the moral power behind the outward struggles. That was what I was looking for, perhaps misguidedly, and I did not find it. Thank you for throwing some light on the matter, Gandolorin - where did you read about the "northern theory of courage?"
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on: March 26, 2014 02:56
Take note that a new translation of Beowulf, by JRRT himself, will be available in May More information can be found here . Note that this translation also includes a commentary by Tolkien.
If we can get enough interest and I can get some help with the postings,I would consider the translation as an upcoming book club reading.


[Edited on 03/26/2014 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 26, 2014 05:11
I was going to reread Beowulf as is it has been eons since I last read it. Then, I discovered that Tolkien's translation is due out shortly, so I have reserved a copy, and will wait until I get it before delving into the subject.

I'm looking forward to being able to intelligently participate in this discussion, and am full of admiration for those of you who have already posted. You have reawakened an old interest in me and, for that, I thank you.
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pv
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on: March 27, 2014 01:16
A book discussion on Beowulf would be great, PbHf! I'm interested!

But Beowulf might prove to be a problematic book to discuss. Tolkien fans know what Tolkien thought of it, but many of us, when we read it, somehow aren't able to see what Tolkien was able to see in it. So it ends up like "the Emperor's new clothes," with people politely quoting Tolkien's views, and not their own. (To be honest, that's what I was doing in the above discussion! )

For a more meaningful discussion, it might be necessary to allow both Angel posts "Ooh I love Beowulf as much as JRRT did!" and Devil posts "Ugh! What did he see in it!"
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tarcolan
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on: March 27, 2014 07:09
I've been listening to Seamus Heaney's reading of his own translation, which has been broadcast on BBC radio a couple of times. It's available as a 2 CD set, 'Beowulf: A New Translation'. I think it's discontinued now but you might find it still for sale somewhere. Recommended.
cirdaneth
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on: March 28, 2014 12:38
I'm all for a Book Club examination of Beowulf. I shall order Tolkien's translation at once. I have Heany's version and also the old Penguin Classic translation by Michael Alexander.(1973) It will be good to compare them and the varying approaches of the translators.
Gandolorin
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on: March 28, 2014 12:25
pv said: Gandolorin - where did you read about the "northern theory of courage?"


My first guess would be Tom (or T.A.) Shippey, "The Road to Middle Earth", revised edition (that I have, there may be newer ones) from 1992, and "Author of the Century", 2000. I must admit that I did not find a mention in the indexes, but the size of my library about Tolkien has made it difficult for me to find specific quotes.

As to Beowulf itself, there is his lecture entitled "The Monsters and the Critics" from 1936, which I have in a 1997 book entitled "The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays" (the other essays are also all worth a read, IMO). It's a paperback by HarperCollinsPublishers. The essay (and of course the lecture) is rightly legendary, changing the direction of Beowulf criticism away from dead-ends.

Interesting that others also have the Seamus Heany version (I also have a German translation from the original Anglo-Saxon). But in Heany's version I must say that I found some phrasing that would almost certainly have raised JRRT's hackles into very stiff wire. I am definitely going to get my hands on the JRRT version!
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: March 28, 2014 06:43
I've never read Beowulf, so Tolkien's translation will be my first attempt at it. That's why I'll be looking for assistance if it becomes a book club selection.
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 29, 2014 10:25
J.R.R. Tolkien identified in his 1936 lecture "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" a "Northern 'theory of courage'"—the heroic or "virtuous pagan" insistence to do the right thing even in the face of certain defeat without promise of reward or salvation:

“It is the strength of the northern mythological imagination that it faced this problem, put the monsters in the centre, gave them victory but no honor, and found a potent and terrible solution in naked will and courage. 'As a working theory absolutely impregnable.' So potent is it, that while the older southern imagination has faded forever into literary ornament, the northern has power, as it were, to revive its spirit even in our own times. It can work, as it did even with the goðlauss Viking, without gods: martial heroism as its own end."

Source: Wikipedia
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Gandolorin
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on: March 31, 2014 02:21
Evil~Shieldmaiden said:"... martial heroism as its own end."
Source: Wikipedia


Here Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son" popped up in my memory. My version is in the "Tree and Leaf" paperback edition 2001 by HarperCollinsPublishers. It is a harsh critique of the fragment of a poem called "The Battle of Maldon", a contemporary description of a battle fought in 991 in Essex between the defense-forces of Essex under Beorhtnoth its duke and a viking host. The - probably superior - force of the vikings were on an island and needed to cross a causeway to move inland for plunder. Against determined defense this causeway was difficult to impossible for the vikings to cross, and the defense was determined. The vikings then appealed to Beorhtnoth's sense of "sportsmanship", as it would be called today, to let them cross th causeway so that a "fair fight" could be joined. Beorhtnoth in his pride and entirely misplaced sense of "chivalry" allowed them to do so, got himself and his men killed for his stupidity, not to mention opening the hinterland to the ravages of the vikings.
Tolkien's specific harsh critique in "The Homecoming ..." was that, this being a time when England had long become Christianized (the abbey of Lindisfarne had been plundered by the vikings 200 years earlier), Beorhtnoth had no business reverting to the per-Christian, pagan northern "heroism" out of pride. "Ofermod" is the term he mentions in the third part (commentary), for me easily recognizable as it has the modern German descendant word "Übermut", meaning wantonness; just a bit less rash than "tollkühn", the most likely source of Tolkien's family name.
I would look at it from a different (more northern, savage) angle: this "Ofermod" may have been a specifically Anglo-Saxon "weakness" of this later age. Hengist and Horsa of the fifth century would, in my opinion, have told Beorhtnoth "*bleep* this idea" and would have hacked away at the vikings mercilessly at the causeway. Much better for the hinterland, at any rate.

[Edited on 03/31/2014 by Gandolorin]
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hobbithole_dweller
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on: May 27, 2014 08:34
(My apologies if this is the wrong place for this. Please redirect or delete my post as necessary!)

Just wondering if anyone has read Tolkien's translation of Beowulf yet and, if they have, what they think of it.

cirdaneth
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on: May 28, 2014 02:25
This is the right place. No, I haven't got it yet. Hoping to find some money and time soon. Anyone else?
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: May 31, 2014 09:29
I've just received it but have been too busy to read it. I want to have enough "relaxing" time to be able to digest it properly. I am looking forward to it though, and I have a dim memory of reading a version of it many, many moons ago.
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Gandolorin
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on: June 28, 2014 09:49
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YABBA DABBA DOOOOOOO!
Just picked up my ordered copy of JRRT's "Beowulf - A Translation And Commentary"!!!
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cirdaneth
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on: June 29, 2014 12:29
I'm just getting to grips with The Fall of Arthur, but Beowulf is next.
pv
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on: June 29, 2014 01:19
Lucky you, Mr Flintstone! JRRT's Beowulf appears to be totally unavailable in my part of the world.
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