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Irmo_of_lorien
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Post Wizards of middle earth
on: February 20, 2007 11:10
Hey all,

I have a question for anyone who might know a bit about the istari etc...

I understand that there were five istari wizards, including Saruman, Gandalf, radagast, and the two blue wizards. But i have found a paragraph in "Unfinished tales" that has made me think:

"Of this order the number is unknown; but of those that came to Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five"

This makes me wonder how many, if any, other wizards were, and why we know so little about them. After looking up chief in the dictionary i am positive that it meens a leader. So does this not mean that, in Middle Earth, there were more, less important wizards, maybe collectors of information etc.

If there is already a topic concerning this, just tell me, but i couldn't see one
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: February 20, 2007 01:28
As far as I understand it there were only five that came to Middle Earth... the number not known refers I think to the number in the Undying Lands. The Istari were Maiar and of them (the Maiar) we don't have a number but we know that there were only five of them that came to Middle Earth and they are known as the Istari. Well that's how I understand it anyway

As for the use of the word 'cheif' ... I do actually remember somewhere talking about in the LOTR Appendices... how Cirdan beheld them arriving in Middle Earth... and he describes the five of them... this is when he gives the Elven ring of fire to Gandalf. Maybe they were leaders of things in the Valinor and that's why they were sent (no book backing for this one... purely opinion). Olorin (Gandalf is mentioned early on in the Silmarillion though... one of the few Maiar to actually receive a mention. Or perhaps 'cheif' refers to the fact they were to help lead the people of middle earth against Sauron (yes I know they weren't to rule the people but to advise and become almost a leader without any real title or authority... if that makes any sense.)

Here's an library article on the Maiar by atalante

[Edited on 7/11/2010 by cirdaneth]
Irmo_of_lorien
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: February 21, 2007 10:33
Thanks anyway for clearing that up, though im still a bit puzzled by the use of the word in that context hmm, maybe it will always be a mystery.
orthanc5
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: February 22, 2007 03:10
Cirdan described the five and said that only five came on the ship, but could the others have landed elsewhere? It makes the most sense that all would land in the Grey Havens, but I guess it's possible that some went further south, if there were more than five.
Tyrhael
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: February 25, 2007 01:23
Tolkien wrote in papers published in UT that the Ithryn Luin wore "sea-blue" robes. I'm not sure of any symbolic significance of the color. As for those five being chiefs of others that came to M-E, I think that is an isolated (and ephemeral) idea which only occurs in that one essay. All the other sources list only the Five, as far as I know.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: May 06, 2009 08:50
Note from Cirdaneth: Member Olion began a new thread under the same name as this, asking the same question, so I have moved it here with Merides reply.

Olion's question? I read in one of the books that there where 5 wizards that came to middle earth. I know theres gandalf the grey, suramon the white and radagast the brown. but who where the other two and what where thier colours and what became of them.
Merides
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: May 06, 2009 08:53
The other two wizards were the Blue wizards. There names were Pallando and Alatar. They were both maiar of Oromë's people. They were called the Blue Wizards because they wore sea-blue robes.

They had no names in the West of Middle-earth, and travelled into the East with Saruman. They did not return, and as what became of them, Tolkien wrote the following:
"I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."


I have included links to the articles that can be found in Elrond's Library, under Middle-Earth, for you. Click on the names to see the articles! Alatar Pallando
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: November 07, 2010 06:59
The quote above is from a letter to Miss Rhona Beare in 1958. She had asked a number of questions requiring a detailed reply of many pages, which Tolkien cheerfully supplied. It's an interesting letter but was 'dashed off' in Tolkien's usual frenzied fashion, with asides and digressions, not all to be taken seriously. I feel that the 'secret cult' slur on the Blue Wizards may be one of them.

In his late writings, Tolkien deals again with the Istari and suggests that the Blue Wizards arrived first, in the 2nd Age Their task being to go East and rally support from those tribes of Men that had not been corrupted by Morgoth or Sauron, and to stir up rebellion and mischief among those that had. A Middle Earth version of our SOE (Secret Operations Executive) in WW2, I suppose. He names them as Morinehtar and Romestamo, Darkness-Slayer and East Helper and surmises that they had great influence on the history of the 2nd and 3rd Ages, weakening the forces which would otherwise have overwhelmed the West. (See Vol. XII, HoME, Last Writings.)
Elthir
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: November 08, 2010 10:56
While it's true that the idea of the other wizards coming much earlier (thousands of years before Gandalf) and having so much success, is found in a late note, if I read things correctly this is not necessarily JRRT's latest idea -- not that cirdaneth said it was, in any event.

The other side of the same page (containing this late idea) contains description that at least suggests that all five wizards came at the same time -- and notably in my opinion, this agrees with what Tolkien himself had already published in The Lord of the Rings as well -- generally speaking anyway -- that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the Third Age.

If so, I think the dating question arguably casts a measure of doubt on the (late notion of the) success of these wizards, as the whole idea might not have remained in play. It's possible that Tolkien had forgotten, but finally remembered, Appendix B, and so revised the idea on the other side of the paper, bringing the tale into arguably better accord with already published description.

____________________

As for the number of wizards, I agree with Tyrhael -- if one looks at all the Istari-related texts, to me the implication that there are more than five wizards looks like an ephemeral idea arising in 1954.

____________________

Which might raise the question of whether or not the other two were really 'Blue Wizards', or really clad in sea-blue.

Letter 211 (195 post dates the Istari essay of 1954, and notes that -- Tolkien doesn't know colours (doubts they had distinctive colours) -- doesn't know anything clearly about the 'other two' -- thinks they went to distant land, fears they failed, and suspects they were founders or beginners or secret cults and magic traditions outlasting Sauron's fall.

Anything later that arguably 'colours' them blue again? I don't recall anything at the moment.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Wizards of middle earth
on: April 01, 2011 11:11
The idea of secret cults seems to crop up as Tolkien grew old and more disillusioned with young people ... as we all tend to do. (I'm fighting it, honest!).

I try to allow for this in his later writings. His own advancing years, his wife's increasing ill-health, and the constant intrusions on his privacy by fans and media, seem to have set him shooting down the things we had come to love.Some of his comments look like Gandalf's irritable reply to Pippin at the doors of Moria.

"Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrine Took, and if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words."

We need to forgive him, but we don't have to take it seriously.
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