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Iavas87
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Post Swords Reforged
on: March 25, 2008 04:37
This post contains two questions with a common theme. Unlike the more philosophically inclined posts that I've made lately, I'll try to keep these more direct.

1) This one's for any metalsmiths or metalsmith enthusiasts out there: Can broken swords actually be reforged into functional weapons? There are at least two examples of elves reforging swords: Anglachel into Gurthang and Narsil into Andúril. In both cases, the point was to preserve the extant symbolic and physical qualities of a weapon superior to any that could be created at the time. This is why they went through the trouble of reforging broken swords rather than simply making new ones. What I want to know is whether in reality it would be feasible to reforge two pieces of a sword back into a whole without leaving a substantial weakness at the fault line that would cause the sword to once again break at even low stress (such as that caused by the impact with a particularly thick orc skull). I'm intentionally ignoring the variable of the elves' greater skill at weaponcrafting for now.

2) Why did Anglachel have to be reforged in Nargothrond? It seemed to function well enough to both cut Túrin's bonds (and foot) and slay Beleg, and I do not remember any mention of it breaking on the way to Nargothrond. It's first description was after Beleg's death, when it was said to be heavy, black and dull with blunt edges. I assume that this was its general description, and the edges only appeared blunt due to its otherwordly composition. On the other hand, when it was reforged, the edges shone with pale fire, though nothing is said of their sharpness. If, indeed, the edges only became blunt after the slaughter of Beleg, then the only reason for this that I could come up with was because the sword mourned for its former master. So, the question is two-sided: If it had to be reforged because it was blunt, then why did it suddenly become so? If it always appeared blunt, then why did it have to be reforged?
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 25, 2008 10:57
Good questions, but I think you'll find your experts in the General Weapns Discussion in Green Dragon Forum. NO need to repost. I can move this whole thread there for you if you like.

I'll lock the thread for the moment, awaiting your instructions.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 26, 2008 09:20
OK everybody! Away you go. Iavas is going to post the first part of the question to the Weapons Discussion too, and place a a link from there to here. Meanwhile we'll get to grips with the second part which is book related.

It would be a good idea to have a link going back to Weapons Discussion too. Makes for lively interchange I think. I'll leave that to you too Iavas.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 26, 2008 11:24
I have quoted the first of the two questions in the General Weapons Discussion thread, though since that thread is primarily purposed to discuss favorite weapon types, I suggested that all answers to said question be posted here. Thanks for your help, cirdaneth. I hope responses will soon be forthcoming.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 27, 2008 09:31
Anglachel - would Turin want to wield a blade that his killed his best buddy (even if by mistake?). I think I'd want it cleansed - wouldn't reforging do that - cleansing by fire?

And maybe to try and cleanse Eol's voice from the sword?

"But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel towards Beleg, Melian looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'"
Iavas87
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: April 17, 2008 12:17
Ooh! I didn't think of the reforging being a form of cleansing. It seems to be an awful lot of trouble to go through, but I see your point. I assume that there is no more pragmatic reason for Gurthang that is mentioned in the books. If anyone does think of a passage explaining it, though, please post.

As for the second question, I seem to have stumbled upon an explanation while surfing Wikipedia. This article actually mentions the reforging of Narsil in the RotK movie and says that they would have had to completely melt down and reforge the blade in order for it to be useful. Simply welding the broken pieces together as is shown in the movie is too unreliable.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: April 17, 2008 10:39
I'm glad you mentioned that, Iavas. I thought the the reforging in the movie looked very dodgy indeed. In fact it was more like a weld. I thought it would have had to be melted down and retempered, with some subtle additions to restore the chemical balance. I'm not an expert in metallurgy, but that's my two (copper) pennies worth.
Makil
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: May 29, 2008 04:13
Iavas87
I tried to answer you first question over at the Green Dragon Inn ,before I saw this post. Short answer. No not like in the Movie. But you wouldn't have to remelt the steel.
On Question 2. Anglachel possibly was dull from Beleg cleaving all those Orc helms and heads. I also don't understand why Turin didn't just resharpen it. If it was soft enough to dull it was soft enough to sharpen.
As someone said maybe Turin had it reforged to rid it of the bad feeling in the sword left by Eol and the Beleg slaying. If so that didn't seem to work,even after the reforging the sword rememberd that He had killed Beleg and agreed to slay Turin.
If they reforged Anglachel to improve on Eol's work (as it had dulled), well it seemed to perform well aftrerwords and did kill the dragon.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: May 30, 2008 07:25
Thanks, Makil. I'm still a bit fuzzy on one point, though - how would you make a solid bar of steel (as you mentioned in the other thread) without having to completely remelt the steel of the sword? Keep in mind, my knowledge of smithing is third person and second rate.
Makil
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: May 30, 2008 11:29
Iavas87
Keep in mind that people once melted brass and bronze and poured in into a mold roughly the shape of the sword ( or tool), then refined and hardened the sword by hammering . The bronze age.
This is Inferior to Iron or steel. And you need a Lot bigger fire to melt iron.
In the movie when you saw molten metal being poured into molds by the Orcs , this is what would have been taking place.

When you pour steel like that you have cast iron or cast steel NOT suitable for swords.

Modern steel is melted and shaped into huge bulk bars hammered by giant hammers and rollers then cut up and forged into the shapes we see .
Primitive folks made iron/steel by heating up iron bearing ore (ROCKS), and meteoric rocks until the iron somewht seperated from the rock then hammering this dirty steel until most of the impurities were beat out of them. Then these small pieces were heated up to welding heat (about 2300 F) and beaten (welded) together on the anvil until you had enough steel/iron to make a sword.

Note..when you heat two bars of steel up 2300F White hot place them together and tap with a hammer the molecules of the bars actually intermingle and the surface between them dissappears. sometimes better than others so you might repeat this step several time to ensure the steel is thouroughly mixed

The Vikings reportedly started introducing carbon into their iron. Iron+ carbon = STEEL. They used pigeon droppings for carbon I understand. pigeon stuff and all the villagers thought they were using magic to make the swords so hard. Big Secret.
If a sword broke the easiest way to repair it is to take the pieces , heat them up to welding heat and weld the whole thing back into a bar,then reforge (shape) the steel into a new sword.
Every time you heat steel up to those high temps the steel scales( pieces flake off) and you lose steel. Thats all those sparks you see flying. So you have to add steel to the pieces or make a smaller sword.
Then you have quench the steel to harden it, then temper the steel to make it more flexable.
Sound complicated? ,No wonder they thought it was magic.

I have just hit the high places. go over to the sword forums or the Knifemaking forums if you are interested. You can see a lot of nice work and hear about the process.

Hope this helped a little.
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Maedhros
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: July 06, 2008 05:19
It's first description was after Beleg's death, when it was said to be heavy, black and dull with blunt edges. I assume that this was its general description, and the edges only appeared blunt due to its otherwordly composition.


I disagree with your assumption. The blade had a sort of mind of its own, vaguely akin to the Ruling Ring. I read the blade as having literally gone blunt (from this 'spirit' remnant of Eol), and needing a reforging to restore it to functional use once more.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 03, 2011 09:11
bump
Gwenniel
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 04, 2011 08:03
Now I don't know about reforging in general, but seeing as Anglachel had "feelings" it may have gone blunt simply from the killing of Beleg. There's much mystery around this topic, but may I present a hypothesis of that the sword wasn't all evil (or just as evil as Eöl, but on a Morgoth level), that it reacted to bad deeds it committed:

- It slays it's master unjustly => it becomes blunt
- It was used for Túrin's suicide => it breaks completely

Could the sword -sentimental as it is- be mourning?
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: March 06, 2011 03:26
I think that Middle-earth metalsmiths may have been able to transfer something of their 'essence' (or fea from the Elves) to certain special items they made, similarly to the way that the Rings of Power and especially the One Ring gained something from their makers.
During the forging of a special sword that essence became part of the metal and could have an effect on the way the weapon interacted with the world, by strengthening its edges and temper and allowing the weapon to have some awareness of what it was used for.

In the case of Anglachel; when such a sword was used wrongly it could sense this and give up its fine edge and finish.
Reforging such a sword may have rejuvenated it by adding some essence from the new forger or repairing the essence damaged by the evil deed.

In the case of Anduril the essence may have still been present in the shards waiting for reforging to make it whole again and once again full of its old essence perhaps enhanced from the smith that reforged it
Nrogara
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Post RE: Swords Reforged
on: May 04, 2011 03:52
Indeed; we must remember that these are magic swords, and will not make complete sense in the real, physical world. Perhaps it was impossible to sharpen Anglachel; perhaps the sword simply refused to be sharpened in it's grief. Perhaps being reforged gave it new hope, a new destiny to fulfill. All I know is that swords tend to take on prophesies in LotR.
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