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Morionquetil
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Post A theory.
on: July 05, 2008 01:48
Right..something that got tossed into my head earlier, and has since been jumbled and enlarged from that little, tiny, snowball into a massive, flaky, snow...boulder.

Anyway...what are the chances that the two Blue Wizards, Allatar and Pallando, were also known as Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul, and the Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-dur?

Yes...I know, but bare with me.

The Mouth. He is said to have been a descendant of the Black Numenoreans; what exactly defines them? It's said that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the guise of Men. It could be that this Istar (Allatar?) came to Middle-earth in appearance of a Black Numenorean in order to gain their trust more quickly. Anyway, assuming this is what happened, it could have been that he himself fell into their ways and became corrupted, eventually coming to power among them - and Sauron. Due to his corruption and fall from grace, Allatar would have lost the majority of his former power; and the trade-off of learning dark arts from Sauron wouldn't have been enough to place him above most of the Nazgul in strength, or keep him above being frightened by Aragorn.
If this is how it went down, it explains the mysterious power of the Mouth of Sauron's voice and the dark strength of his words.

Gothmog. His identity is left heavily ambiguous; whether he's the third-in-command of the Nazgul, a high-up Orc Chieftain, or a Black Numenorean is unknown. What if was a fallen Istari? I'll assume Pallando. It could be that he, like Allatar, at first followed his orders from the Valar - the pair traveled into the East to try and keep the Men there from following Sauron into darkness. It could be for him, that, like Allatar, he became corrupted by those he sought to protect. Eventually, he could have come to power among the Easterlings, and then earned the attention of Sauron by allying the Men of Rhun, Khand, and Harad. It could be that he was Umbar when Sauron contacted him and brought him to Mordor. From there he became the Lieutenant of Morgul, placed as the second-in-command of the Witch-king, being not as powerful as him due to his loss of power due to corruption.


So..yes. Just a theory. Well, two. Hehe. Discuss!
Ilandir
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 05, 2008 11:24
Interesting theory. It could be possible for Gothmog, but for the Mouth of Sauron, I doubt it. Since all Wizards came from the West (Valinor), therefore it cannot be that the Mouth of Sauron is one of them since (as you said is a Black Numenorean) he came from Numenor and was a mortal.

Edit:-
I just wished to add also that, concerning the Mouth of Sauron, there is an almost definite quote that states he was a mortal (and therefore can't have been one of the Istari). From The Return of the King, 'The Black Gate Opens', we read:-
"yet this was no Ringwraith, but a living man."

Just thought I'd post this to clear things up in my previous post.

Thanks

Btw, Morionquetil, I'm writing an article on the Rankings of Mordor for the Realmer's Digest September issue ... I hope it would be of interest to you!

[Edited on 6/7/2008 by Ilandir]
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cirdaneth
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 06, 2008 11:46
Thank you Ilandir. We can be certain that Mouth was a human, although he may have been a very long-lived one. We have a Mouth of Sauron thread somewhere.

The original Gothmog was, of course, a balrog and it is probable that the Gothmog of Minas Ithil was a man named after him ... or more intriguingly perhaps was one of the Nazgul, and therefore a man until he became a wraith. A lieutenant, after all, is somone who stands in *lieu* of the *tenant* or holder of an office ... in this case the Witch-King. Is WK going to pass over all his cronies while making the appointment? So Morionquetil's suggestion makes sense in that respect ... but not an Istar. The Nazgul were around in the Second Age, 2000 years before the arrival of the Istari.

Now permit me to stir the pot with my big wooden spoon!!

Firstly, although the Witch King is a Nazgul ... I like to think he might have been a maia, sent (possibly with others) in the second age posing as a Numenorean, but was taken in by Sauron in the same way as Ar Pharazon was. Just a thought.

Secondly, might the two blue wizards have been female? The Istari came in the shape of *men* but Tolkien likes to use words in their original sense and *man* is the Old English word for *human person* not necessarily male. It is said the Blue Wizards went East, so either or both could have perished or elsesurvived into the Fourth Age.

OK ... I'll put my spoon away now.
Maedhros
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 06, 2008 05:01
cirdaneth,

I do not believe that the Gothmog of Minas Morgal being a Nazgul makes sense. Your reasoning holds up on the surface, but consider when Sauron sent the Nazgul gallivanting about Eriador after Frodo. If this Gothmog character were one of the Nazgul, then he would, obviously, have gone along. That would mean not only is the Witch-king away from Minas Morgul, but his lieutenant is as well.

It's possible, but I don't think it is very likely that Saurons sends the two top people in Morgul's chain of command out of the region when things are ramping up for war.

About the Blue Wizards - while it is theoretically possible that they would be women, I don't think it's likely. Appearing as males would make it easier for the Istari to guide the people of Middle-earth against Sauron. Woman are not incapable of acting in the political scene, but it is dominated by men.

And I don't think that the Witch-king could possibly have been a Maia. When Gandalf describes the Great Rings to Frodo in Shadow of the Past (I believe that chapter), he says that mortals who use the Great Rings too often will fade. So if this Maia had taken on a real incarnate form like the Istari did, he would not have faded (being not mortal). If he had not taken on such an incarnate form, then how could being washed away affect him so much, and how could Merry's blade cut invisible sinew? It doesn't seem possible to me.

Oh, and about the Mouth of Sauron, I don't think there is any reason to suspect that he is any more long-lived than a typical Man. I'd be interested if you know of something to that effect.
*insert thumbs-up*

Ilandir,

Cheers, I'd have referenced the same quote myself. The Mouth of Sauron was certainly a man.

Morionquetil,

An interesting theory indeed, but I'm afraid it is most likely incorrect. According to the latest writings on the Blue Wizards (found in HoMe Volume XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth), the Blue Wizards traveled into the East and had great success in their mission of attacking Sauron's power base out there. Tolkien wrote that their efforts significantly decreased the manpower Sauron was able to muster, such that if it were not for the Blue Wizards Sauron would have been able to overwhelm the West - which he nearly did anyway!

[Edited on 7/7/2008 by Maedhros]
Morionquetil
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 06, 2008 06:40
Hehe, thanks for the feedback guys. I'm fully aware that it's not likely, and have adopted a phrase to describe my theory a friend of mine coined - "Possible, but not probable."

Seeing as the Ithryl Luin (may have spelled that incorrectly) were considered as equals in terms of both importance and power, it would make sense that, if they came to power under Sauron, they would be placed in similar positions - both Lieutenants taking command of an entrance to Mordor. The Mouth at the Morranon, and Gothmog at the Morgul Vale.

I myself don't consider this theory canon, just something interesting I thought of.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 06, 2008 09:14
In some later writings, published in the HoME series (I'm away from my books right now, so I can't check in which volume), Tolkien tells of the Blue Wizards a bit more. They were also known as Rómestámo and Morinehtar, and did a lot in the East to turn people away from Sauron. So, I think it's very unlikely that either one of them could have been Gothmog or the Mouth of Sauron (who, as is clearly stated in the LOTR, was a human, as others here have already said).
cirdaneth
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 06, 2008 09:17
About the Blue Wizards - while it is theoretically possible that they would be women, I don't think it's likely. Appearing as males would make it easier for the Istari to guide the people of Middle-earth against Sauron. Woman are not incapable of acting in the political scene, but it is dominated by men.
Cough - splutter-gasp! *mops coffee off keyboard*
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 07, 2008 02:02
The comment may be politically incorrect but it is relatively accurate for the times. Numenor was ruled by a few Queens and Galadriel may hold sway in Lothlorien, but the leadership of Middle-earth was generally in the hands of men for all three Ages. Just look at the problems that Eowyn faced trying to influence her people, and she was the niece of the King.
If Allatar and Pallando appeared as old women, they would likely have had a much more dificult time appearing as strangers and then trying to advise the peoples in the East
Iavas87
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 07, 2008 07:51
While I agree that Middle-earth in the third age was politically dominated by men (Galadriel being the great exception), I don't think that the Istari necessarily had to influence people politically. To get a little Jungian, each of the three better-known Istari could be characterized by the Wise Old Man archetype, with Gandalf also taking on aspects of the Trickster (especially in The Hobbit). They gave advice to both political figures and others who embodied the Hero archetype, but they were not political players themselves (with the possible exception of Saruman after he started building up his army). Continuing this derailed train of thought, were the Blue Wizards female, they would have probably taken on the Great Mother archetype instead. Thus, instead of going around advising farmers, kings, and kings-to-be on world shaking matters, they would have let people come to them for healing, protection, and moral support. Thus, much like Gandalf, they would have slowly build up a loyal following of good folk, though they would have gone about it in a different way. Thinking about it now, it seems to me that from what little we know of Radagast, the Brown Wizard seems more befitting of the latter description than he does of of the former 'active advisor' one. However, he is definitely referred to with the masculine pronoun, whereas the Blue Wizards are always mentioned together using a gender neutral plural pronoun in every description that I've found, so despite his questionable archetype he is most definitely male.

Anyway, when imagining the Blue Wizards as 'witches' instead of 'wizards', I can see them seeming even more mystical and a good deal more nature based than their western counterparts (which would have served them well if they allied with the Avari in the same was as the western Istari did with the remaining Noldor and Sindar). Overall, it's an interesting concept, but one on which I must hold off my decision for the time being. My only canonical knowledge of the Istari comes from the Unfinished Tales (as well as, of course, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) and there are certain points in "The Istari" that disagree with those from The Peoples of Middle-earth that are alluded to in this thread. Notably, Tolkien seemed to have decided that they succeeded in their mission, whereas in the Unfinished Tales he was still suggesting that they had failed, albeit in a different way than did Saruman. Since I am only a couple of books into The History of Middle-earth series, I've yet to read the Professor's later ideas concerning the eastern Istari. I can only assume that he continues to use the plural neutral pronoun throughout, leaving their true gender to be guessed, but I somehow feel that he would have mentioned it if it were different from that of the better known wizards. I'm also rather curious if, by the time of his later writings, he still has the five Istari being only the greatest of a larger group or if he eventually limited the wizards to only those named five.

[Edited on 7/7/2008 by Iavas87]
Ilandir
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 07, 2008 09:00
Thank you Ilandir

Cheers, I'd have referenced the same quote myself. The Mouth of Sauron was certainly a man.


Hehe no probs cirdaneth and Maedhros!

Also, just to support Maedhros point on the Witchking not being a Maia, cirdaneth, reading the One Ring verse, one reads : "Nine for mortal men doomed to die" - its right there. Although it would have been interesting if he was a Maia!


[Edited on 7/7/2008 by Ilandir]
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Maedhros
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 07, 2008 10:36
cirdaneth, PotbellyHairyfoot et all,

I will be the first to admit that "political" was perhaps a poor choice of word. It was late and I couldn't think of a better fitting word. And like PotbellyHairyfoot said - while it may sound a bit politically incorrect, it's simply a descriptive statement; call it good, call it bad, but there's no denying that Middle-earth is primarily male-dominated.

And lavas87, while I agree with the principle that the Istari did not have to move in the political circles, if their task was to kindle resistance to Sauron, then they would be best served by brushing elbows with the rulers, rather than commoners.

Also, you wrote:

I'm also rather curious if, by the time of his later writings, he still has the five Istari being only the greatest of a larger group or if he eventually limited the wizards to only those named five.

The bit about the Blue Wizards that is in HoMe XII: The Peopels of Middle-earth, Last Writings is titled "The Five Wizards", and one quote from that reads:

The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

HoMe XII: The Peopels of Middle-earth, Last Writings

So that would seem to indicate a total of only five wizards. However, I don't think that this is really needed to show that there were only five Istari. To my knowledge there is only one quote that mentions more than five wizards, that being in the UT. In RotK it says:

The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called....

Return of the King, Appendix B, The Third Age


And, of course, there is the "rods of the Five Wizards" comment from Saruman that the Peoples of Middle-earth quote above mentioned, and also that 'rhyme of lore' in Unfinished Tales which makes a comment to the effect of the "five that came".

So, all told, I think the texts point conclusively to there being only five Istari.

*insert thumbs up*

[Edited on 7/7/2008 by Maedhros]
Rulea
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 12, 2008 06:27
I could see where Allatael could be the Mouth of Sauron, but that's an interesting theroy.
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LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: A theory.
on: July 19, 2008 04:13
I'm venturing into unknown territory here, not having read anything concerning blue wizards (for a long time I thought they only came in neutral colors: grey, white, brown. . .Ethelbert the Ecru? Theobald the Taupe? but I digress. . .). However, I'm fascinated by cirdaneth's suggestion that they might have been female, and I'd just like to add to Iavas87's Jungian explanation, that blue is a color associated with the archetypal Great Mother. Hmm. . .

Maybe Tolkien himself was toying with the idea and never quite decided.

Interesting discussion.

[Edited on 20/7/2008 by LadyBeruthiel]
cirdaneth
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on: October 05, 2014 07:10
*bump
Hanasian
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on: October 25, 2014 05:51
I am of the opinion that the two blue wizards went far far to the east, and there possibly "went native" and were never heard from again. FI they had been around in another guise, I'm sure Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, and surely Saruman, who was likely the last one in the tales to see them since he too went east, but returned later. This is good stuff for fanfics though.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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