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tarcolan
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Post RE: FotR: Barrow-Downs
on: July 26, 2011 01:21
I thought it reasonable to assume that the prophesy referred specifically to this instance, the circumstances being so unlikely otherwise, rather than a general observation i.e. that any non-man would kill the Witch King. So that particular blade was destined to wound him, just as Merry and Eowyn were destined to be involved. That's all I meant by 'destiny'.

On another tack- I haven't got a copy of FOTR at the moment so I can't check this but didn't Aragorn say something about ordinary weapons not being able to harm the Black Captain at the dell at Weathertop? I think he was talking about Frodo slashing the robe. But didn't Frodo use a similar blade from the barrow?

Finally, and back on topic, what sort of spirits were sent to inhabit the barrows? I don't think Tolkien meant Maiar.
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Elthir
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Post RE: FotR: Barrow-Downs
on: July 26, 2011 03:51
On another tack- I haven't got a copy of FOTR at the moment so I can't check this but didn't Aragorn say something about ordinary weapons not being able to harm the Black Captain at the dell at Weathertop? I think he was talking about Frodo slashing the robe. But didn't Frodo use a similar blade from the barrow?


Aragorn says: '..all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.' but Frodo had only slashed his cloak. Tolkien notes that the Bearer (Frodo) had resisted and: '... had dared to strike at him with an enchanted blade made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him.'

JRRT goes on to write that the Wraith must have thought Frodo was mightier in some way than the Barrow-wight (as he somehow had such a blade), and that Frodo was also in league with the High Elves of the Havens, due to him calling out a name of terror to the Nazgul (this text comes from Marquette MSS 4/2/36 The Hunt for the Ring, published by Hammond and Scull in their Reader's Companion).

Another interesting description resulted from Tolkien reacting to a film treatment...

(...) There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.


JRRT, letter 210, 1958
asea_aranion
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Post RE: FotR: Barrow-Downs
on: July 27, 2011 03:52
Back to bodies; if the Ringwraiths had bodies, how long do you think it took them to get home from the Ford of Bruinen?


I don't remember where I read it, but I believe that the Witch-King arrives back in Mordor in December (the incident at the Fords of Bruinen having taken place on October 20th)

That is certainly feasible, considering the fact that I don't believe any of the Nazgul are mentioned again until sometime in February...
tarcolan
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Post RE: FotR: Barrow-Downs
on: July 27, 2011 10:03
Thanks asea_aranion, it was slightly flippant question. December eh? That's pretty slow actually, I could manage that, roughly 20 miles a day. I would have thought they could keep going 24/7. It was more their debatable fear of water that bothered me. Even if they weren't actually scared of water they would have been a bit reluctant to try swimming after the Ford incident. I presume they didn't go over the mountains so there would be two rivers to cross before Osgiliath, neither with bridges.

And thanks Elthir for the quote, I really must get a copy. Any thoughts on the spirits sent from Angmar? I originally assumed they were dead traitors from the Northern wars but I'm not sure now.
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asea_aranion
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Post RE: FotR: Barrow-Downs
on: July 27, 2011 10:30
I don't know that they were scared of the water, it was more a matter of not really having many options since their cloaks and horses were washed away, so they had no means of transportation except walking, and no cloaks, which would render them incapable of interrogating anybody about the whereabouts of the hobbits (which they did a lot of in the Shire and in Bree).

I mean, to say this is to assume that they would think like you or I, but I feel like after the incident at the ford, it would have been a moment of "Great... so what do we do now?" They couldn't get into the valley over the river, they had no idea how long Frodo and company would stay there, and they had no idea where they would be going if they left, so it seems like the best option they had would be to take the opportunity to head home and regroup, which is what they did.

ETA:

In response to your other question regarding the spirits of Angmar that infested the Barrow-downs, the LotR Wiki suggests that they were the souls of demons who had been destroyed that were searching for a new place to dwell, and therefore reanimated the bodies and armor of the ancient Kings of Men who had been buried in those mounds. Wikipedia suggest that they are evil spirits of some kind (perverted Maiar or possibly spirits of Orcs, fallen Avari, or evil Men).

I cannot find direct quotes for either of these speculations, but they both do seem feasible. (Except maybe for the "perverted Maiar" idea, because I find it extremely unlikely that Frodo and the hobbits would stand a chance against a Maiar that intended to kill him) The Witch-King was a sorcerer after all, and we know that it was he who put the wights there (and who roused them before Frodo and his friends found themselves trapped) so I don't find it too hard to believe that he trapped evil spirits in the dead bodies of ancient kings.

[Edited on 27/7/2011 by asea_aranion]
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