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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 02, 2009 04:05
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits?
To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.

2) Feanor called the Noldor together and knowingly used Melkor's falsehoods freely in his oratory atop Tuna, when convincing them N to leave and return to Middle-earth with him. He then swore his overdone oath, basically against anything that came between his people and their future. Was this good leadership, or just crass politicking?
oiotari
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 02, 2009 04:45
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits?
To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.
Feanor, being an excellent speaker, would have likely added more just for effect. However, even though he was often rash, he was smart enough to know that the addition to the oath would have a large effect that should not be taken likely. I don't know if the oath was entirely preplanned or not, so he may not have been thinking about the effect that each of the words of the powerful oath would have.
Also, because of Melkor's lies, Feanor may have actually suspected the men and other Valar of trying to steal the Silmarils. By now he was very suspicious of anyone and everyone, save his sons. He knew that the Valar wanted the Silmarils in order to restore the trees. Everything he knew about the race of Men came from Melkor's lies, and he was even suspicious of Fingolfin and his host.

Hope that my wording wasn't too confusing, my thoughts are a bit scattered at the moment
TindomerelofNargothrond
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 02, 2009 07:42
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits?
To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.

I totally agree with ezetterlund. I think when Feanor said "anyone" he meant it. He was really obsessed with the possesion of the Silmarils. It didn't matter who took them. He was going to get them back.
2) Feanor called the Noldor together and knowingly used Melkor's falsehoods freely in his oratory atop Tuna, when convincing them N to leave and return to Middle-earth with him. He then swore his overdone oath, basically against anything that came between his people and their future. Was this good leadership, or just crass politicking?

I don't think using Melkor's lies could be good leadership in any way. Feanor was merely concerned with his own purposes. If he was going to go fight Melkor, he would need an army. The Noldor would be a great army. Feanor was paving the way for his ultimate purpose: retrieve the silmarils. I don't think he was concerned with being a good leader. He wanted revenge against Melkor.
Sitara
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 03, 2009 12:05
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits?
To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.

I totally agree with ezetterlund and Tindomerel. Taking into account all the history of the Silmarils and Fëanáro’s perception regarding the nature and intentions of the Valar, there is little wonder that he included anyone in his oath. In my opinion, in Fëanáro’s mind was then little difference (if any at all) between Melkor and the rest of the Valar. There was more than one thief who coveted his Silmarils, I believe he was thinking. And, of course, hearing from Melkor of all people about the Secondborn, he couldn’t think about them in other terms than thieves who had stolen the Elves’ rightful inheritance, with the Valar’s complicity, of course. So, no, I think he took that oath in both earnestness and folly, meaning every single word of it.

2) Feanor called the Noldor together and knowingly used Melkor's falsehoods freely in his oratory atop Tuna, when convincing them N to leave and return to Middle-earth with him. He then swore his overdone oath, basically against anything that came between his people and their future. Was this good leadership, or just crass politicking?

Frankly, I don’t understand why Fëanáro would have taken this kind of oath only for effect, as the Noldor were horrified hearing its blasphemous words and this had nearly lead to another swordfight. This oath was actually sworn against anything that came between Fëanáro, his sons and the Silmarils, his own people included if this had been the case. Therefore, the effect was strongly against Fëanáro’s case instead of being favourable to him. The worst politician I’ve ever seen, in my opinion.

In that hour, Fëanáro was beyond caring about good or bad leadership or about politics, in my opinion. Since the death of his father and the theft of his Jewels, Fëanáro burned like a torch to his death. And, as Tolkien stated in the Silmarillion, he never realized that his angry words had been practically reproducing Melkor’s lies. The lies of Melkor were his truth, at that time.


[Edited on 3/9/2009 by Sitara]
Elanor_the_elf
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 10, 2009 03:21
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits?
To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.

2) Feanor called the Noldor together and knowingly used Melkor's falsehoods freely in his oratory atop Tuna, when convincing them N to leave and return to Middle-earth with him. He then swore his overdone oath, basically against anything that came between his people and their future. Was this good leadership, or just crass politicking?

1) I think it was mentioned before but he REALLY wanted those jewels back not matter who had it. Because what if Ungoliant had taken them or if the other Valar decided to beat up Melkor? He wanted his shinies and he was going to get them xD.
2) Feanor was trying to be a good leader even though people didn't agree with him fully. He used the lies to encourage them to follow him but he also believed them himself. It even says that when he tells them that the Valar are holding them captive there that many began to desire land in Middle Earth for their own...not everyone was after the shiny objects like Feanor was .

I wanna know why you guys think Feanor was in such a hurry. I know he was trying to avoid taking too long and letting the fires burn out in the people but in his rush he made a bunch of mistakes as a leader. He really ruined any alliance they might've kept with the Teleri and then ditched his half brothers...whether he liked them or not, Fingolfin had said to him that he would follow him....He was going to be loyal whether he liked it or not -_- and Feanor just ditched him. I'm wondering, do you think he really had faith in his brother to follow him or was he just so set on his plight that he didn't even care?

I realize there's two questions in there but oh well...xD
Sitara
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: September 12, 2009 06:13
I think you're right, Elanor, in thinking that Fëanáro was in a hurry to leave Valinor because he feared that the Noldor would change their mind. After all, there had been quite a lot of people, especially accompanying Finarfin, who kept looking over their shoulder at every step. But I believe the main reason for him to urge them forward had always to do with the Valar.

True enough, Manwe's herald had told him the Valar won't do anything to stop them, but I think that Fëanáro didn't believe a word of what he said and he was expecting at any moment to see the Valarin riders coming to stop them by force.If Melkor had stolen his Silmarils, what he could expect from his brethren, I do believe he was thinking back then.

As for Fingolfin...I truly think Fëanáro was ready to give his half-brother a chance when they stood together before Manwe. However, we should remember that Fingolfin stood against Fëanáro when he took the Oath and the swords were again almost drawn from their sheaths. Also, the most of the Noldor had agreed to go to Middle-earth but with Fingolfin as their king. After the first Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos, the Noldor's camp was something close to a barrel loaded with gunpowder, everyone blaming Fëanáro for their predicament. Sometimes I think that if Fëanáro and his host hadn't left as they did, the second Kinslaying would have occured right then and there. However, in my opinion, at Losgar Fëanáro wasn't anymore able to plan and he just did the first thing that crossed his mind, as one "fey", because fey he was.

So much mistakes and suffering...It's like the human history. And yet...there is always estel. Always.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: December 28, 2009 04:53
1) Why did Feanor include ANYONE who held or took a Silmaril in his oath rather than just Melkor? Was it a bit of overkill, or did he want to make the oath seem more dramatic by adding the extra bits? To me the oath was similar to Morgoth promising to give Ungoliant whatever her lusts desired; said more for effect.

It was partly a family honour thing and also I think Feanor didn’t trust anyone else not to let the Valar use the Silmarils to restore the trees. I don’t think it was overkill. He certainly felt the need to make the oath forceful, and being Feanor he did it with knobs on.

Feanor swore that solemn oath, calling not only the Valar, but Eru himself to witness. It still makes my blood run cold when I read it. Melkor’s offer to Ungoliant, however, was a simple promise, which he intended to break. So in that respect they are not alike … but both Melkor and Feanor spoke in haste and without reckoning the consequences. Even Melkor had a very close shave with Ungoliant later on. So there is a certain similarity there.

2) Feanor called the Noldor together and knowingly used Melkor's falsehoods freely in his oratory atop Tuna, when convincing them N to leave and return to Middle-earth with him. He then swore his overdone oath, basically against anything that came between his people and their future. Was this good leadership, or just crass politicking?

I don’t think Feanor knowingly used Melkor’s lies in his oratory. The Noldor had all been subject to a lengthy campaign of misinformation and although Feanor did not trust Melkor, he had ceased to trust all of the Valar, as being of Melkor’s kin.

At the stage where Feanor swore his oath both Valar and Eldar were in a state of shock. It was an enormous test of faith for the Valar, whose perfect land had been plunged into darkness, and suffered its first death. Even their faith in Eru must have been tottering. As they faltered, so did Feanor and it is telling that he remained unmoved by the tears of Nienna and fled into the night.

Suddenly he was king. What could he trust? What could his people trust? Not light. Not life. Earlier he had declared the Silmarils so precious that their destruction would break his heart and kill him, yet it is stated that his father was even more precious to him; but Feanor did not break his heart and die at his father’s death … he took up his mantle and poured the energy of his grief into his oath without thought for its repercussions. I believe he was trying to be a good leader, but was overborne by his own personal agenda. It was easy for others to follow him. Finwe had been their king. Their grief was great and their loyalty to him was by right transferred to his successor, especially when attached to a vow to avenge his murder.
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Post RE: III.9 Of The Flight of The Noldor
on: March 18, 2011 05:14
Feanor, being an excellent speaker, would have likely added more just for effect. However, even though he was often rash, he was smart enough to know that the addition to the oath would have a large effect that should not be taken likely. I don't know if the oath was entirely preplanned or not, so he may not have been thinking about the effect that each of the words of the powerful oath would have.
Also, because of Melkor's lies, Feanor may have actually suspected the men and other Valar of trying to steal the Silmarils. By now he was very suspicious of anyone and everyone, save his sons. He knew that the Valar

wanted the Silmarils in order to restore the trees. Everything he knew about the race of Men came from Melkor's lies, and he was even suspicious of Fingolfin and his host.

[Edited on 29/3/2011 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
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