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Charlie_RedLion
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Post Of The Valar and Men
on: November 20, 2009 06:09
Hello there.
Here are some questions i always wanted to ask.Why do the valars rarely helped mankind ? I mean apart for the edains of the first age who fought bravely against the shadow of Morgoth , they rarely bothered to help or guide the race of men . It seems to me that they received far more "guidance" from Morgoth and Sauron then any other of the Ainur . did they envy the men ? or they just think of them to be worthless ?
Ereinion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: November 20, 2009 11:29
Men are not mentioned until after the Doom of the Noldor, at which point the Valar had a rather "hands-off" approach to things outside of Valinor. That said, Ulmo "nonetheless took thought for them, aiding the counsel and will of Manwe; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not skill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they mingled with the Elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages." (The Silmarillion, chapter 12: Of Men). After they came into the West, and cast their lot in with the Elves, it seems likely that the Valar could not aid them without aiding the Noldor as well.

As far as envy or thinking of the men as worthless, that seems highly unlikely. The Valar were more likely to think of them much the same as they thought of the firstborn of Iluvatar.

Of course, as far as rarely helping or guiding, a case could be made that they were helping, but that's a rather different argument which I might expound upon later.
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: November 20, 2009 01:42
Indeed , Ulmo did helped them , however as far as i know he was the only one to do so . What about Orome or Aule ?
And thank you for the quote , i apreciate its wisdom. Did anyone wonder what if Morgoth didn't find the men and turned their hearts to evil and fear ?
Ereinion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: November 23, 2009 05:07
It seems unlikely that either Orome or Aule would act. After all, after the Rebellion of Feanor, Ulmo is really the only one who still helps out the Elves, for the most part (i.e. his advice concerning Nargothrond and Gondolin).
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: November 28, 2009 01:18
So what you're saying is that the children of men should shape their own future alone and unguided among the powers of the world ?
That seems strange to me because of all the races , men have little wisdom and without help they often go astray. In fact most of them did go astray , men like the Easterlings who fought against the Eldar and the Edain.
It looks like the race of men is to weak to follow the paths to wisdom and elightment alone.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: November 30, 2009 02:02
Yes, you could say that humans are left to fend for themselves, in a way. But, they can always turn directly to Eru.
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: December 24, 2009 06:15
That makes me wonder. What is the purpose of men in Middle-Earth (Arda)? Why did Eru granted them the gift of shaping their own future ? It seems to me that they are unique on Arda(because the elves are much like the Ainur, but lesser in might and wisdom).
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: December 24, 2009 08:12
Both Elves and Men have free will, if that's what you mean by being able to shape their own future. The primary difference between the Two Kindred is that Elves are immortal and Men are not. By extension, this means that Elves tend to be long-sighted--that is, they look ahead to see what the consequences of their actions will be. They also have a greater depth of experience to draw on. This means that usually, they will make wiser choices than Men, who only have to look ahead to 50 or 80 years and who likewise have far less experience.

However, there are Elves who have made woefully bad choices. Look at Feanor and his sons. In a moment of high emotion, they made a horrible decision that resulted in death for many. I would not at that point compare them to the Ainur.

As for the point of men (which is what you were asking), I would say Eru created them for the joy of creating. I'm a writer, and there are things I've written for no reason other than the joy of having written it. I know artists who feel the same way. The one time we really see Eru, he is creating and leading others to create. Could he not simply love to make new things?
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: January 06, 2010 01:47
Yet the Ainur made mistakes of their own. One of this is removing the elves from Middle-Earth(in order to protect them from Morgoth) wich i believe is a mistake because by doing this they shaped their lives and history.What if the elves stayed in Cuivienen ?
Well, no silmarills or palantiri stones or any other craft that the elves made in Valinor under the guidance of Valar.For in any great work that the elves did beauty is mingled with grief.
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: January 09, 2010 10:37
But Eru is not one of the Ainur. He is above them, and even Manwe who is generally acknowledged as the chief of the Valar is in Arda to ensure that the will of Eru is carried out. Part of the hesitation of the Valar to get involved in the history of Men is an uncertainty about what Eru does wish--so no, they are not omniscient.

Back to the original-original question... Of the Valar and Men. I think you hit on something interesting when you said that in many ways, the Elves are similar to the Ainur. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by it, but there is one thing that I've wondered about. It seems that the Valar understand the Elves better than they do Men. Or rather, they understand their nature better. Perhaps it is because they too are immortal. There are definitely times when both the Valar and the Elves struggle to see the point of a creation which is as ephemeral as Men.

If the Valar understand the Elves, then they can also more easily see what Iluvatar would wish for them--therefore, they would be more involved in their lives. Likewise, if Men are in many ways a mystery to the Valar, they will have a harder time discerning the will of Iluvatar... and thus decide to remain on the sidelines.

However, I think it's important to note that when men cry out to the Valar, their prayers are answered just as the Elves are. For both Kindred, they "come when called," but it is only when the Elves that they understand enough to involve themselves further.
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: January 13, 2010 02:50
Well, think about it.Both the Elves and the Valar are immortal, both "kindreds" show great beauty, wisdom and power yet the Ainur are their betters.Afterall they shaped Arda for the comming of the Quendi and the Atani.Their fate is that of Arda(the elves die not until the world dies) and they cannot escape its borders.

But Men are mortal, and when they die they leave Arda never to return(Wich as time wears even the Valar shall envy), because its in their nature to find no rest therein and after the end of days they will join the second music of the Ainur.

So in these terms the Atani are unique, and their fate is outside the music of the Ainur which is as fate to all things else(even that of valar and elves).
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: September 14, 2011 09:22
But the nature of their immortality differs. The Ainur, who include the Valar, Maiar, and many lesser spirits, have true immortality and are eternal as Eru (even Morgoth, cast out as he is). The elves on the other hand have merely a serial longevity that ends when Arda ends, and they know no more than Men what their destiny may be beyond the End of Days. They just have longer to wait and worry about it.

For both races their comfort lies in hope.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: September 15, 2011 09:04
Let's be pedantic. I wouldn't say the Ainur are as eternal as Eru simply because they were made by Eru and, presumably can be unmade. The Valar are those of the Ainur concerned with Arda and this may have something to do with their distance from Men. Elves are bound to the world until the end, but men are only here for a very short time before going somewhere else, or so it is assumed, so they are more like visitors and separate from the world. A bit of an enigma to the Valar maybe?
Huin
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Post RE: Of The Valar and Men
on: September 16, 2011 08:49
If I'm recalling offhand, the vision shown to the Ainur by Eru ended before the history of Men had completely unfolded. I get an overall sense that the Atani don't have the same predestination hanging about them that the Ainur and the Elves have.
To me, they are kind of an experiment of Eru's: Let's see what happens if this new entity is left largely to determine its own fate.
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