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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 03:06
We know that the Elvensmiths of Ost-in-Edhil made Rings of Power but I have a question about them;
When Sauron forged the One Ring he transferred some of his own powers into it, so where did the Elves find or take the power they transferred into the other 19 rings?



[Edited on 15/3/2010 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
starofdunedain
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 06:35
My guess would be from nature. Unlike Sauron who used his own strength.
I think Narya was the Ring of Fire, Nenya the Ring of Water, and Vilya was a ring of air or sky.
Makes you wonder why there wasn't a fouth ring for earth?
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 09:23
I've wondered about that too, Starofdunedain. It occurs to me that a ring f earth would have to have a green stone ... and we all know where that is, don't we?
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 10:13
Umm No Please enlighten me... My specialty is Fist Age stuff I'm not thick really!
Iavas87
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 05:24
One notable green stone is beryl, also known as the Elf-stone... such as the Elessar, the green gem worn by Aragorn and from which he acquired his royal name. The Elessar was crafted, according to most accounts, by a jewelsmith of Gondolin named Enerdhil, the greatest of jewelsmiths save Fëanor only. It was either taken to Valinor and returned, or possibly remade by Celebrimbor, who was the counted third greatest jewelsmith, at the behest of Galadriel. Of course, one account says that it was Celebrimbor that made the original, and yet another states that Fëanor made the gem, but these seem to be earlier and less official versions.

Either way, it's an interesting theory that the Elessar was the 'fourth ring', and one that I've not yet considered before. If that is, indeed, the case, then it was the one Elven 'ring' that was not tied to the One, which has interesting implications for Aragorn's reunited kingdom.
Elthir
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 06:18
I think there is only one account with Enerdhil in it, and...

Of course, one account says that it was Celebrimbor that made the original, and yet another states that Fëanor made the gem, but these seem to be earlier and less official versions.


The Feanor version is earlier IIRC (early 1950s), but according to CJRT the concluding words of the later text, The Elessar -- which offers two internal, purposely conflicting versions -- show that Celebrimbor was to displace Enerdhil, so this idea appears to have come at the end of this text. And as Celebrimbor jewel-smith of Gondolin ultimately became Celebrimbor the Feanorian (published in the second edition), doubt is cast on this idea in any case, IMO.

The Elessar text is really a 'very rough manuscript' in the first stages of composition (although bearing a few emendations), and I have various questions concerning it... for instance, a rather large one being: why is Galadriel speaking so to Gandalf (who returned the Elessar according to the 'one stone version') in the Third Age?

Straying a bit off topic here
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 07:42
In which volume do you find the text The Elessar? I'd be interested in reading it, no matter how rough it is.

As for the original question... My impression was that the One Ring gained that extra bit of control from Sauron's spirit. It would have worked just fine as a standard, every day Ring of Power without it, but that extra something gave it the ability to dominate and control the other Rings. Therefore the three Elven rings would not have needed to take their power from a living thing in that manner.
Elthir
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 15, 2010 08:12
The Elessar can be found in Unfinished Tales Chocolatequeen -- in The History of Galadriel And Celeborn section.

I like the fact that Tolkien was thinking of offering, in this text specifically, two purposely conflicting tales, but both versions raise questions IMO, including certain questions that I'm not sure Tolkien intended to raise.
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 16, 2010 07:06
Wow maybe I'm not so thick :love:, well I was gonna say the Elessar but I thought it wasn't a ring??? Wasn't it a necklace or brooch???
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 16, 2010 10:15
I'm guessing Celebrimbor would halt production once he realised what Sauron was up to. So the green stone was never cut into a ring, but was disguised as a brooch, along with the silver intended for its setting.
Elthir
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 17, 2010 03:09
Makes you wonder why there wasn't a fouth ring for earth?


At one point Tolkien imagined that the Three were, for example, the Rings of Earth, Sea, and Sky, with Galadriel bearing the Ring of Earth.

Obviously not his final idea, but I thought I would note it; see Galadriel for instance, in The Treason of Isengard.
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 17, 2010 09:33
The Elessar can be found in Unfinished Tales Chocolatequeen -- in The History of Galadriel And Celeborn section.

I like the fact that Tolkien was thinking of offering, in this text specifically, two purposely conflicting tales, but both versions raise questions IMO, including certain questions that I'm not sure Tolkien intended to raise.


Ah, then I have read it--I just didn't associate it with that title.

I think there are many places where Tolkien's conflicting ideas raised questions. I like precise answers, so I find this frustrating at times... but if we had all the answers set in stone, what point would there be in discussion?
Elthir
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 18, 2010 03:27
I think there are many places where Tolkien's conflicting ideas raised questions. I like precise answers, so I find this frustrating at times... but if we had all the answers set in stone, what point would there be in discussion?


True enough! and I would like to spotlight a distinction here too. Examples:

A) First version: why does Galadriel speak of desiring nature about her that does not fade -- to Gandalf, as she should already have Nenya by this time.

B) Hammond and Scull also note that this version implies Galadriel failed in her trust when compared to The Lord of the Rings, for Gandalf seems to say she is supposed to keep the stone until Aragorn comes to receive it (yet she gives it to her daughter first).

C) Second version: why should Galadriel give up the Elessar in the Second Age after she receives Nenya? Elsewhere, according to Galadriel herself even, the Three should not be used as Sauron still has the One on his finger.

D) In this version the text calls Nenya the 'chief' of the Three. How is Nenya the chief of the Three when it had already been published that Vilya was the mightiest of the Three? Did Tolkien just forget this at the time? Or did he intend some distinction here.

End note to The Elessar: generally, the fact that Celebrimbor was to displace Enerdhil in Gondolin is itself later put into question, for Tolkien decided that Celebrimbor was Feanorian and published this (and later appears to have forgotten that he had published it, incidentally).

So certainly the reader of The Elessar is meant to wonder which version is true, but are the questions I raised meant to speak to this, for example? or are they issues that have more to do with Tolkien forgetting stuff? If so, in his defense he has really only written a rough draft here, and possibly not fully considered all the relevant points.

Tough to say

For instance, for all I know the detail that Galadriel should already have Nenya by the time Gandalf arrives is meant to show a 'weakness' in version one, giving readers something to ponder when wondering which version might be 'true'.
ElfofCave
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Post RE: Rings of Power?
on: March 21, 2010 03:56
Makes you wonder why there wasn't a fouth ring for earth?


Because Tolkien’s legendarium essentially is a collection of fairy tales, and one of the most important elements of fairy tales is magic numbers ((1), 3, (5), 7, 9, 13), something Tolkien seems to have been aware of because he used them all the time:

3 Houses of the Edain
3 Silmarils
3 Sundering of the Elves
3 (main) Houses of the Elves
3 Elves who depart with Oromë as ambassadors of Valinor.
5 Wizards
7 Sons of Fëanor
7 Seven Fathers of the Dwarves > 7 Houses of the Dwarves
7 Lords of the Valar
7 Queens of the Valar
9 members of the Fellowship
13 dwarves in “The Hobbit”
And so on…

When it comes to the Rings of Power you have a chain of magic numbers: 1, 3, 7 and 9. If Tolkien had decided the to have 4 Elven Rings the “magic” would have been lost
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