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cirdaneth
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Post Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 17, 2010 09:35
When the Fellowship enter Lothlorien and cross its northern border Legolas says:
It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land whence we wandered in ages long ago,” said Legolas, “but we hear that Lórien is not yet deserted, for there is a secret power here that holds evil from the land. Nevertheless its folk are seldom seen, and maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern border.
Later, Celeborn greets him thus
Welcome, son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.
Interpretations of these quotes tend to assume that Lothlorien is the only part of Southern Mirkwood ever inhabited by elves, and that it is impossible to tell whether ‘kindred’ refers to elves in general, or Sindar in particular. The word 'hither' is also important.

What do you think?
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 18, 2010 03:56
My recollection is that the Mirkwood Elves used to roam far and wide, right up until early in the Second Age when many of the Noldor settled in Eregion, and at that point Thranduil's father, Oropher, who had become their King, decided to move them deep into Mirkwood and away from the bad influence of the Noldorian Elves resettling from the destruction of Beleriand. A coningent of Mirkwood Elves did fight in the Last Alliance but they rejected to offer of better armour and weapons from the Noldor and were decimated.
The Mirkwod Elves gradually became isolated from all other Elves, trading only with the Men of Lake-town, likely necessitated by their access to the wonderful Dorwinion wines.
At the time of the War of the Ring, The Elves of Lothlorien had also become rather isolated, mainly due to the nearness of the Moria Orcs making travel unsafe.

Legolas was quite likely the First of the Mirkwood Elves to travel to Lothlorien in 3000 years.

I'm not sure if Celeborn meant Sindar or Elf in general as both terms apply equally well to the situation.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 18, 2010 04:20
Well, first, a small correction: Lothlórien is not a part of Mirkwood, the southern parts of Mirkwood just lie across the Anduin from there.

In Appendix B to the LOTR, it is told that
before the building of Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves.

Thranduil's realm was one of these.

In The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, it comes out that the Elvish folk of this realm (I take this to mean the Silvan Elves) had migrated from the south, and were kin and neighbours of the elves of Lórien, but had originally dwelt in the southern part of Greenwood the Great, the later Mirkwood. At that time, the elves from the different realms must have been much more in contact with each other. Even after Oropher, Thranduil's father, moved his realm to the northern parts of the forest, there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the Anduin, until the War of the Last Alliance. In that war, about two thirds of the army of Mirkwood fell, Oropher himself among them. After that, the contacts seem to have become scarce.

[Edited on 18/4/2010 by Morwinyoniel]
Elthir
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Post RE: Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 18, 2010 06:00
... and at that point Thranduil's father, Oropher, who had become their King, decided to move them deep into Mirkwood and away from the bad influence of the Noldorian Elves resettling from the destruction of Beleriand.


The text in Unfinished Tales states that Oropher moved due to the Dwarves of Moria, and that he also resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lórien. Keep in mind that there's already a mountain range between Eregion and the Anduin Vale.

Or (there being an alternate version, from note 14 to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields): Oropher moves due to rumours of the rising power of Sauron.

A coningent of Mirkwood Elves did fight in the Last Alliance but they rejected to offer of better armour and weapons from the Noldor and were decimated.


Hmm, I don't recall that they rejected better armor or weapons specifically anyway. It is more generally noted that the Silvan Elves were ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Western Eldar; and also that they were independant and...

'... and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad.'
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 19, 2010 06:29
Tolkien was very specific in his use of words and I believe ‘kindred’ would refer to blood kin in both quotes i.e. Sindar, whereas ‘folk’ and ‘people’ would refer to the group under their protection. The lines can get a bit blurry though.

With the fall of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, the Sindar of Doriath had nowhere to go but East, unless they wished to sail. Thingol and Melian were gone and Beleriand, subject to inundation and earthquake, was disappearing beneath their feet. Oropher and Amdir seemed to feel that none of this would have happened but for the Noldor and their quarrels, and in fact they came to believe that the summons to Aman had been a big mistake by the Valar.

For this reason they set out across Eriador and over the Misty Mountains in search of a simpler life. They had skills they could offer to the Sylvan elves of Rhovannion who were vulnerable to the dispossessed servants of Morgoth in the north. They settled in the land called Lorinand, which at that time occupied both sides of the River including that part where later was Dol Guldur. So although the later Lothlorien was not part of Mirkwood, part of Mirkwood was once Lorinand. … erm …complicated.

Galadriel and Celeborn are said to have travelled north east with a mixed group of Noldor, Sindar and some Nandor from Ossiriand, and settled for a while beside Lake Evendim, north of what would one day become The Shire. In 2A750 they moved south and with other Noldor, founded Eregion and at some point in the next 250 years Galadriel made contact with Lothlorien.

Galadriel realised quite early on that some evil force had remained after the fall of Morgoth, and although she had not yet identified it as Sauron, she knew that to fight it, the peoples of Middle Earth must put aside their differences and act together. Thus she took on an ambassadorial role which was misinterpreted by some and by Oropher in particular. He moved his people north of the Gladden to avoid her influence, but remained on good terms with Amdir.

The decimation of the Mirkwood elves at the Last Alliance came, as Elthir points out, through their stubborn resistance to acting as a unified force under the command of Gil-Galad (who was a Noldo). Thranduil was deeply traumatised and with the growing influence of Galadriel and the Dwarves of Moria, and something nasty developing in the forest he finally moved his people to the very north of Mirkwood around 3A1000 and had little contact with Lothlorien thereafter.
Elthir
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Post RE: Movements of the Mirkwood Sindar
on: April 19, 2010 09:00
Galadriel and Celeborn are said to have travelled north east with a mixed group of Noldor, Sindar and some Nandor from Ossiriand, and settled for a while beside Lake Evendim, north of what would one day become The Shire. In 2A750 they moved south and with other Noldor, founded Eregion and at some point in the next 250 years Galadriel made contact with Lothlorien.


For myself I believe these details -- from the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn or 'CG&C' for short -- were rejected; or at least it is not the only version possible I think. In Words, Phrases and Passages Tolkien noted (entry Lothlorien):

'... Valley of Singing Gold. Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.'

And (entry yrch) '... overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)'


I think these are leading to later ideas where movement into Lórien awaits the fall of Eregion. And with respect to earlier travels, after crossing the Blue Mountains: The Road Goes Ever On simply states that crossing the EredLuin Galadriel with Celeborn passed into Eregion. And for the Second edition of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien added that Celebrimbor was Lord of Eregion.

Was Amroth born near Evendim? In later notes he is no longer Galadriel's son in any case, yet a sojourn to Evendim could easily have been briefly referred to in RGEO. And Celebrimbor, now simply noted as ruler of Eregion, might suggest JRRT abandoning that the Jewel Smiths revolted against Galadriel and Celeborn, arguably taking away Galadriel's reason to leave Eregion before its fall (while in this conception Celeborn remained anyway, and didn't go with her to Lórien).

I think this would also help iron out (in CG&C) why Galadriel as a ruler of Eregion both scorned Sauron and allowed him to remain in Eregion. Not that Tolkien couldn't have danced around this, but to my mind it would be easier to remove Galadriel as founding and ruling Eregion -- and put a Feanorian in charge where Sauron would make strides with the Eldar, despite the warning from Lindon.

As CJRT himself noted, according to notes later than CG&C: 'Celeborn's association with Lórien is now placed much further back (...) and we learn here that many Noldorin Elves passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion.' Of course, in these later notes it is neither asserted nor denied whether certain aspects from CG&C 'survived', and one could arguably explain certain details as simply being left out due to abbreviation.

So in the end I'll say: not necessarily

There are also seeming variations concerning when Legolas' people migrated. From Words, Phrases and Passages again, where JRRT is considering linguistic questions, he gives a date: Third Age 2000 (Tolkien also noted between 1980 and 2060) -- Legolas' people were here said to be immigrants who had left that region when Moria became evil and the shadow of Sauron grew about Dol Guldur.

In a later text (as already noted in the thread), Tolkien notes that there was constant intercourse between the peoples until the Last Alliance (Appendix B, History of Galadriel and Celeborn). And in note 14 (Disaster of the Gladden Fields): three times had Oropher moved northwards, and by the end of the SA he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir: '... and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient dwarf-road.'

I don't think it's made clear in note 14 just when connections between peoples stopped.


[Edited on 19/4/2010 by Elthir]
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