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findemaxam48
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on: February 21, 2014 04:54
Thank you for your advice, help, and input. I suppose that I will catch on more eventually.

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Cudìr
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on: February 21, 2014 10:03
I have just tried my hand at translating something into sindarin and would like oppinions and possibly help with the flow of it or help with the rhyming. It is the firefly opening theme:

Maba velethen, maba dhôren
Tôg ni nan had ú-belin dartha

Im ú-draston, cuion enni
ú-belil hari 'wilithen

Tôg ni athan i vôr, trenar sain ú-ethelin
dosta i vâr, a lacha in gaer
ú-belil hari 'wilithen

ú-cuion mi toe said
An tevin sîdhuinind
ú-belil hari 'wilithen

Literal Translation:

Sieze my love, sieze my land
bring me to the place I can't remain

I am not troubled, I live for myself
you can't have my sky

Bring me beyond the black, tell them I will not come back.
burn the land and flame the seas
you can't have my sky

I cannot live at those places
for I have found peace-of the-inner mind (compounded)
you can't have my sky
i nui, ù i nui!!
boe iathegen gâr sigil.
Galadivren
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on: February 22, 2014 03:27
Mabo melethenen, mabo dhôrenen = Take my love, take my land
Togo nin ias ú-dharthathon = Lead me where I cannot stay
ú-drasta nin, ni lain = It does not trouble me, I am free
ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me

Togo nin nan menil = Take me to the heavens
Pedo andin ú-athelithon = Tell them I will not return
Dosto i dhôr a nartho i aear = Burn the land and kindle the sea
ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me

Awartho i ndîr ias caedar = Forsake the men where they lay
ui ú-genithar arad dadui = They will not ever see a second day
Danhiro i fae nîn, danhiro ôlenen = Lost my soul, lost my dream
ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me


(To be edited, had to disappear)

Actually wondering about a verb for 'to lose' based on dangar = undo (and hence dadhren = forget, to un-remember). Danhir = to lose, to un-find.

[Edited on 02/22/2014 by Galadivren]

[Edited on 02/22/2014 by Galadivren]
Galadivren
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on: February 22, 2014 02:14
Elhath said:

Either opting for gar- (geri-) or reintroducing !tor- (teri-) (< Gn, PE11:72) would of course take care of this problem.

Employing mature Sindarin's 'usual' vowel-lengthening (WJ:415, PE17) to create a past 1 sg. from ⁿdef- would imaginably give *eniven "I tried, have tried" — though personally I do think the "Noldorin style" nasal lengthening can still occasionally appear just as it is still attested (indeed, for stop-final roots) in PE17, although there prefixed with the root vowel (hence NDEB > *enemmin, vs. suffixed -ant > *ⁿdevennin sec. PE17:44). Alternatively, PE17 also provides the probably synonymous verb (unglossed by Tolkien) raitha-, #ritha- (from root RIK- 'strive', giving Q ric- 'try, strive, endeavour') : Renk

"Keep in[side], contain" might be representable simply with one S word; ergo *necheb-ed < KHEP-. (Also good to note: Tolkien's English translations in The War of the Jewels pp. 371 [S], 404 [Q] seem to suggest that "it" as an object doesn't necessarily always require a separate indicator, at least not with an imperative verb.)

[Edited on 02/22/2014 by Elhath]


Aye, the different past tense does bring up some interesting ideas. I'm still a little unsure on it, whether it really is irregular, or whether it should be considered the norm as some scholars suggest. Hopefully one day I'll get a definitive answer, I can always dream.

It doesn't help with the future tense for such collisions though, where we have pelitha. If we stick to the suggested mutations, is it 'it will fade' or is it 'it will be able to'. Similarly, cenithon (I will see, or I will call?) and the others, of which there aren't many. Thankfully. Makes my idea easier to tolerate, as it does become truly irregular (even counting my reconstructions I have 6 occurrences in the whole language).
Elhath
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on: February 23, 2014 07:17
Galadivren said:

ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me


If the first verb is to represent the present tense 2 sg. of a formation [from POL-] parallel to gala-, toba-, groga-, then shouldn't the stem vowel be /o/, not /e/? (Cp. galog "you [sg.] grow", PE17:131-2.)
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
Galadivren
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on: February 23, 2014 08:11
Aye, pol- based off the Quenya.
findemaxam48
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on: February 23, 2014 01:14
"To give onto them life for ashes."

Lit: "To give to them life for ashes."

Sindarin:

Antha na chain cuil ed lith.


How's that one?
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Galadivren
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on: February 24, 2014 08:34
Anno andin cuil an lith = Give to them life for ashes
An annad andin cuil an lith = For giving to them life for ashes
Elhath
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on: February 25, 2014 04:46
Galadivren said:Anno andin cuil an lith = Give to them life for ashes
An annad andin cuil an lith = For giving to them life for ashes


Given that "life" is the object ('lasto beth') and not the purposed agent ('pedo mellon') of the imperative verb anno, lenition is expected ➜ guil.

"For": The actual meaning sought here, "in return/exchange for", might be includable in the scope of an (an item usually implying destination) if Sindarin happens to follow English or German there — however if one looks beyond these two languages, using some other preposition would make more sense (also for discernibility's sake); e.g. dan "back to, back (in return) against" [PE17:38] or (a)thar "crosswise, over", vs. *e mas(s)/maer..¹, ed ant.., *†ro [: Q rá]. — Compare Latin pro "für, за" (pro-creo = S ed-onna- but ora pro nobis = Q á hyamë rá men) & counterparts in Finnish, Celtic, etc.

¹ *"out of good [of]", with abstracts < CE *maʒ-sē, *maj-rē

[Edited on 03/01/2014 by Elhath]
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
findemaxam48
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on: February 28, 2014 05:26
I will burn, I will burn for you, with fire and fury.

I will burn, I will burn for you, with fire and rage.

Im innas dosta, Im innas dosta andh, na naur ad oroth.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Galadivren
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on: March 01, 2014 07:37
You need to look at verb endings and remember that pronouns are part of a verb in Sindarin:

Dostathon = I will burn. Dosta- (stem) + 1st person future tense.

Innas is a noun, it means 'will' as in one's inner will, their mental resilience. Don't worry though, it's a mistake I've seen a lot in people when they're first learning

Dostathon anlen/angin = I will burn for you

anlen/angin = for you. These are an = for + the dative/reflexive pronoun (in Sindarin this means 'you' instead of 'you are'), which we know from 'anim = to/for myself'.

[Edited on 03/01/2014 by Galadivren]
findemaxam48
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on: March 01, 2014 11:39
Galadivren said:You need to look at verb endings and remember that pronouns are part of a verb in Sindarin:

Innas is a noun, it means 'will' as in one's inner will, their mental resilience. Don't worry though, it's a mistake I've seen a lot in people when they're first learning


Oh, goodness, I see what I did wrong with the first now. And I am laughing at myself for the second. I suppose I'll get both down eventually. Thank You!


We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Alexanda
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on: March 24, 2014 01:19
Hello! Here's my attempt to translate the Lord's Prayer into Sindarin. All corrections are welcome.

Original text:

Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For Thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Edited version:

Our Father in heaven, glory to your name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth
as it is in heaven. Give us this day our bread,
and forgive our trespasses as we forgive those
who trespass against us. And lead us not into
temptation, free us from evil. The kingdom,
power, and glory to you for eternity and eternity. Amen.

Sindarin:

Adar min nedh-menel, aglar an eneth lin.
Aranarth lin tol, innas lin na carn bo ceven
sui ha na nedh-menel. Anna men aur sen bass min,
a dihena ugerth min sui men dihena ti ai ugarth dan men.
A tegi men u nedh uthaes, lain men o ogol.
I aranarth, balan, a aglar na le anuir a anuir.
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 24, 2014 02:47
For comparison, here is Tolkien's version:

Ae Adar nín i vi Menel
no aer i eneth lín
tolo i arnad lín
caro den i innas lin
bo Ceven sui vi Menel.
Anno ammen sír imbas ilaurui vín
ar díheno ammen i úgerth vin
sui mín i gohenam di ai gerir úgerth ammen.

(Published in VT#44)
Elhath
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on: March 24, 2014 06:06
Alexanda said:Hello! Here's my attempt to translate the Lord's Prayer into Sindarin. All corrections are welcome.


One of the things to always observe when translating are the parts of speech. For example, S lain is only an ADJECTIVE (like Spanish libre) and cannot be used as a VERB (in IMPERATIVE mood) which the English "free[!]" implies here (equivalent to Sindarin adlego, leitho or adleitho). Nouns, adjectives and verbs only tend to look alike in Modern English.

The direct object PRONOUNS would most likely suffer Soft Mutation (e.g. /t-/ > /d-/). Analogy with an: ammen might increase the chance of "against us" becoming S *dammen (cp. Welsh/Celtic prepositions with personal endings).

"Give us" has "us" implying an indirect object (= "to us" ), though. Ergo, "Anna men aur sen bass min" —> *Anno (i) mbas(t) vin (ned/or) aur hen ammen. (Which also illustrates how adjectives/demonstratives 'in use' become lenited [s > h].)

[Edited on 03/24/2014 by Elhath]
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
narbelethnin
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on: March 24, 2014 04:40
i am somewhat new to this page and am trying to figure out a translation i will use all the time.
i am trying to find a way to say "how are you?" in Sindarin, but can't find words for "how" or "are". Can anyone think of another way to inquire about how someone is feeling?
Galadivren
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on: March 25, 2014 03:30
Ci mae? = Are you well?

The reason you can't find 'are' is that in most cases the verb 'to be' is implied. The pronoun Ci = You are, so said in a questioning manner becomes 'are you?'
narbelethnin
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on: March 25, 2014 02:27
Thanks! That was just what i needed!
Alexanda
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on: March 26, 2014 01:11
lol I'm wrecking my brain to sort out all these information as to why Tolkien use the words the way he did. Why does he translate "Our Father" to "O! Our Father"?

[Edited on 03/26/2014 by Alexanda]
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 26, 2014 03:18
According to the notes, it is possible that the word 'Ae' was added later, and to compare with 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' - perhaps making the point that this is how the Elves address in prayer (i.e they start with the word 'Oh!')
Alexanda
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on: March 26, 2014 07:23
I see. So is there a specific time when to use "A" and "Ae"? Or is it up to preference?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 27, 2014 03:03
More personal preference. I would always favour 'Ae' over 'A' simply because the former could be mistaken for 'and'.
Alexanda
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on: March 27, 2014 03:45
Thanks so much! It has really helped me.
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Alexanda
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on: March 28, 2014 01:56
I have another translation I want to put as my signature:

"Praise God from whom all blessing flow."

Translation I've come up with so far:
"Eglerio Eru o in galu pan sirio."

Corrections? (I think something needs to be done to "o in"
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 28, 2014 04:29
Well I read it as 'Praise Eru from/about the blessing all flow' (so not far off).

Eglerio [Eru/Iladar] o(d) i bân [gely/galu] siriar = Praise Eru from whom all blessings (they) flow

Iladar = All-father, it's not the Christian God, but it would be the Sindarin form of Iluvatar (from Goldogrin Ilador).
O(d) = older Sindarin took the form od before a vowel for 'from/of', I tend to use the same. Other scholars don't, and only use it for Doriathrin.
Gely/Galu = as we're not entirely sure of the correct gloss, it could be that Galu is already a plural, but if it isn't, then Gely = blessings
Anarxus
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on: March 28, 2014 07:28
Hello, I was hoping to inquire of ye elvish scholars how to say a short phrase in Sindarin elvish. The phrase is:

"This (left)hand enslaved free peoples."

My best, uneducated guess is:

"Sen crum bauglant nuir léra."

If you are able to correct the grammar or make the translation more correct, I'd appreciate it. []
Alexanda
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on: March 28, 2014 08:49
Galadivren said:Well I read it as 'Praise Eru from/about the blessing all flow' (so not far off).

Eglerio [Eru/Iladar] o(d) i bân [gely/galu] siriar = Praise Eru from whom all blessings (they) flow

Iladar = All-father, it's not the Christian God, but it would be the Sindarin form of Iluvatar (from Goldogrin Ilador).
O(d) = older Sindarin took the form od before a vowel for 'from/of', I tend to use the same. Other scholars don't, and only use it for Doriathrin.
Gely/Galu = as we're not entirely sure of the correct gloss, it could be that Galu is already a plural, but if it isn't, then Gely = blessings

Thanks! But doesn't the adjective come AFTER the noun? In this case, "blessings all" instead of "all blessings"?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 28, 2014 09:39
Indeed. I could put on a teacher hat and say 'ah, so you picked up on that intentional mistake', but that would be a lie. Truth is I was more bothered about the gloss of 'galu'

i [ngely/'alu] bân
Galadivren
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on: March 28, 2014 09:42
Anarxus said:Hello, I was hoping to inquire of ye elvish scholars how to say a short phrase in Sindarin elvish. The phrase is:

"This (left)hand enslaved free peoples."

My best, uneducated guess is:

"Sen crum bauglant nuir léra."

If you are able to correct the grammar or make the translation more correct, I'd appreciate it. []


You're not far off, actually.

I grum hen bauglant nuir lain = This left hand oppressed free races

I grum hen = This left hand

I don't know if I'm entirely happy about using nûr = race, but other than explicitly stating Men, Elves etc. as races I can't think of a better way.
Anarxus
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on: March 28, 2014 10:52
Galadivren said:
Anarxus said:Hello, I was hoping to inquire of ye elvish scholars how to say a short phrase in Sindarin elvish. The phrase is:

"This (left)hand enslaved free peoples."

My best, uneducated guess is:

"Sen crum bauglant nuir léra."

If you are able to correct the grammar or make the translation more correct, I'd appreciate it. []


You're not far off, actually.

I grum hen bauglant nuir lain = This left hand oppressed free races

I grum hen = This left hand

I don't know if I'm entirely happy about using nûr = race, but other than explicitly stating Men, Elves etc. as races I can't think of a better way.


Awesome! Thanks, Galadivren!
Alexanda
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on: March 28, 2014 08:03
Galadivren said:Well I read it as 'Praise Eru from/about the blessing all flow' (so not far off).

Eglerio [Eru/Iladar] o(d) i bân [gely/galu] siriar = Praise Eru from whom all blessings (they) flow

Iladar = All-father, it's not the Christian God, but it would be the Sindarin form of Iluvatar (from Goldogrin Ilador).
O(d) = older Sindarin took the form od before a vowel for 'from/of', I tend to use the same. Other scholars don't, and only use it for Doriathrin.
Gely/Galu = as we're not entirely sure of the correct gloss, it could be that Galu is already a plural, but if it isn't, then Gely = blessings

So it's acceptable to say: "Eglerio Eru o i ben gely siriar"?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 29, 2014 02:12
Praise Eru from whom according to the blessings flow?

[Edited on 03/29/2014 by Galadivren]
Alexanda
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on: March 29, 2014 05:18
Ok, now I'm confused. :/

How should I say it then?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 29, 2014 12:53
Sorry, I actually assumed you meant the word ben = according to the, was it a typo?
Alexanda
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on: March 29, 2014 03:09
The original word was pan. But I noticed you have put it as ban, so I thought it was a mutation.
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
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