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Galadivren
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on: March 30, 2014 08:17
Yes, soft mutation on pân.
Alexanda
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on: March 30, 2014 11:17
"Eglerio Eru o i ban gely siriar". That ok?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: March 31, 2014 03:49
Yip looks good, just don't forget to use accents on vowels, they change the pronunciation of the word (and in many cases actually let us tell the difference without hearing it between two similarly spelt words).
Alexanda
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on: March 31, 2014 04:49
One problem: I don't know which accent to use. You can just give me a "properly written" example. Also, just to be sure, accents lengthen the vowel sound right? Thanks a lot!
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galaneth
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on: March 31, 2014 06:15
Hi!
I've been working on a translation but as I'm pretty new to Sindarin I'd like some help, especially with those dang tricky verbs.
I am trying to translate "You cannot seize the sky from me"

So far I have:

úgerich mebi i menel o nin

But I'm very unsure about the verbs, especially as I use two... "gar-" for can and "mab-" for seize... should they both have the suffix "ch" or only one? I have left "mab-" as infinitive form but I'm not sure that's appropriate.

Also just wondering generally if I got the words in the right order.

Thanks for any help you can give me

[Edited on 03/31/2014 by Galaneth]
Galadivren
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on: March 31, 2014 12:46
Alexanda said:One problem: I don't know which accent to use. You can just give me a "properly written" example. Also, just to be sure, accents lengthen the vowel sound right? Thanks a lot!


Well, in a good dictionary all words are written correctly, as I've previously written, in this instance the word is pân, with the longest a. Yes, accents lengthen the vowel sound.
Galadivren
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on: March 31, 2014 12:49
Galaneth said:Hi!
I've been working on a translation but as I'm pretty new to Sindarin I'd like some help, especially with those dang tricky verbs.
I am trying to translate "You cannot seize the sky from me"

So far I have:

úgerich mebi i menel o nin

But I'm very unsure about the verbs, especially as I use two... "gar-" for can and "mab-" for seize... should they both have the suffix "ch" or only one? I have left "mab-" as infinitive form but I'm not sure that's appropriate.

Also just wondering generally if I got the words in the right order.

Thanks for any help you can give me

[Edited on 03/31/2014 by Galaneth]


Okay...

First of all I think you're confusing two verbs. Gar- = to have, hold and Car- = to do, to make. Neither of these is the verb you want.
Pol- = to be able to is the one you do.

ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me

The suffix -ch isn't actually a 2nd person form, it's now known (pretty definitively) to be a first person plural 'we'.
Galaneth
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on: April 01, 2014 02:56
Galadivren said:

Okay...

First of all I think you're confusing two verbs. Gar- = to have, hold and Car- = to do, to make. Neither of these is the verb you want.
Pol- = to be able to is the one you do.

ú-belog mabo i eil o nin = You cannot take the sky from me

The suffix -ch isn't actually a 2nd person form, it's now known (pretty definitively) to be a first person plural 'we'.


Thank you for your help! I must be using an out of date source of information.

If you have enough time, would you mind going through what you did to the verbs/why you did it? I'm trying to wrap my head around using verbs in Sindarin but it is tricky to understand! I was also wondering what dictionary you use? I haven't come across "eil" in any of the ones I've seen, and I've seen slightly different definitions for "gar-"
Galadivren
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on: April 01, 2014 03:50
Yes of course.
First of all the dictionary. I compiled my own, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22676988/Sindarin-English%20Dictionary.doc which started from entries in http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/sindar/dict-sd-en.html (this was missing a lot of the later words from 2007 onwards which I have added to mine, along with some others from various places.)

Just realised I actually copied over a mistake (somebody else asked for this translation a few pages ago). It should be ú-bolog not ú-belog.
Pol- = to be able to is a reconstruction from Quenya.
-og is the 2nd person informal ending (if you wanted 'thee', change it to -ol).
Mabo = the verb Maba- plus the imperative ending -o, making it Mabo = Take!
Eil is from Eiliant = Rainbow, literally 'sky bridge'. You may also see some people use Ell = Sky due to the older Noldorin word 'Gell'.
Galaneth
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on: April 01, 2014 03:57
Galadivren said:Yes of course.
First of all the dictionary. I compiled my own, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22676988/Sindarin-English%20Dictionary.doc which started from entries in http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/sindar/dict-sd-en.html (this was missing a lot of the later words from 2007 onwards which I have added to mine, along with some others from various places.)

Just realised I actually copied over a mistake (somebody else asked for this translation a few pages ago). It should be ú-bolog not ú-belog.
Pol- = to be able to is a reconstruction from Quenya.
-og is the 2nd person informal ending (if you wanted 'thee', change it to -ol).
Mabo = the verb Maba- plus the imperative ending -o, making it Mabo = Take!
Eil is from Eiliant = Rainbow, literally 'sky bridge'. You may also see some people use Ell = Sky due to the older Noldorin word 'Gell'.


That's fantastic! Thank you so much for your time and energy
Elhath
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on: April 01, 2014 11:56
Galadivren said: ... mabo i eil o nin = ... take the sky from me


Worth noting: Looking at Tolkien's own philological "studies" of LotR-era material in Parma Eldalamberon #17 (esp. pp. 131-2), one rather gets the idea that we ought to expect the infinitive of most verbs to end in either -ed ("Root Verbs" like car-) or -od ("A-stems" like gala- & maybe also the "Root Present, Suffixed Past" type gar+a-, sog+a- with inf. -o in The Etymologies). — Yet interestingly, PE17 also still provides a verb nathlo "[*to] welcome, be kind to" (p. 141), begging a question about the possible (?) survival of the Etymologies' "Noldorin" infinitive ending -o in some cases (and perhaps also reminding the comparative scholar of the large variety of infinitive endings found in both Medieval & Modern Welsh).

Of course, "take, grasp, nehmen" isn't even attested for Noldorin/Sindarin per se — AFAIK all we still have is the entry in Etym:371, containing the "Old Noldorin" (come LotR: Old Sindarin) stem map-. Strictly under Occam that would point to a Sindarin root verb *mab-, and in the system laid out in PE17 have an infinitive *mabed "to take".

[Edited on 04/01/2014 by Elhath]
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
Galadivren
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on: April 01, 2014 12:33
Eh...
the -ed ending on I-stem verbs and the -ad ending on A-stem are the gerund (Cabed en-Aras) acting as a noun. The infinitives are generally tentatively expressed as Cebi = to leap.

-o is known to be the imperative from Caro den

Mab- egor Maba-, either is a reconstruction from the same root, I've seen both used.
Elhath
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on: April 03, 2014 05:34
Galadivren said:
The infinitives are generally tentatively expressed as Cebi = to leap.


This is based on material on this site, yes; written before the release of PE17 and built around The Etymologies (relying on online interpretations by Salo, Fauskanger, Derdzinski &al.) which were written by Tolkien in 1938-40 when the language was called 'Noldorin' and there still *were* infinitives/verbal nouns ending in -o (< ON *-óbi or *-óbe), -od (pannod, glathrod) and -i (at least!). Later, in 1951 (SD:129) we have suilannad used in such function (governed by aníra) and some time after that, once Tolkien wrote Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of the Rings (PE17), -ed and -od are offered as examples of "typical" infinitive endings.

Obviously, -ed and -ad are also endings appearing in abstract nouns.

[Edited on 04/04/2014 by Elhath]
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
Cudìr
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on: April 05, 2014 08:57
Galadivren said:
Just realised I actually copied over a mistake (somebody else asked for this translation a few pages ago). It should be ú-bolog not ú-belog.


But doesn't the 'o' get i-affected to an 'e' when conjugated?
i nui, ù i nui!!
boe iathegen gâr sigil.
Galadivren
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on: April 05, 2014 09:25
Ordinarily yes - see my post on page 12 for the original discussion
findemaxam48
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on: April 18, 2014 06:35
OK, slightly off topic, but Galadivren, your dictionary is a life saver! Thank you!
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
findemaxam48
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on: April 23, 2014 02:25
OK, so I tried to translate some names of gemstones into Sindarin. I am almost 100% sure they are inaccurate because they are new words and compiunds and things, but I thought to post them in here so you all can correct me and i can learn.


Ruby-caransarn (lit. red stone) or caranmir (red jewel)
Diamond-nimsarn (lit white stone) or nimmir (white jewel)
Sapphire-luinsarn( blue stone) or luinmir(blue jewel)
Emereld- calensarn(green stone) or calenmir(green jewel)
Aquamarine-elusarn(pale blue stone) or elumir(pale blue jewel)
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Galadivren
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on: April 23, 2014 02:57
For a brief overview of compound rules, look here:
http://sindarinlessons.weebly.com/32---how-to-make-names.html
I put this together a while ago to help me as much as other people.

Caranmir -> Caranvir
Luinmir -> Luinvir
Calenmir -> Calenvir
Elumir -> Eluvir

I have a less literal reconstruction for sapphire = lûl (which if memory serves comes from Qenya, but it may be Goldogrin).
Alexanda
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on: April 24, 2014 03:25
Ok so, Maxie and I are going to attempt to translate the entire 'Let It Go' song into Sindarin. Since Maxie already tried translating the first two lines of the song, we'll revise that and work from there:

The snow glows white on the mountain tonight, not a footprint to be seen. A kingdom of isolation, and it looks like I'm the queen.
I loss dartha faen/'lân/nimp, erin orod i fuin hen, ú rein an gened. Arnad erui, a thia ni i vereth. (I'm not sure which one to use, faen, 'lân, or nimp. Which is more accurate?)
The wind is howling, like this swirling storm inside, cannot keep it in, heaven knows I tried.
I 'waew gâw, sui i alagos hen mi nin. ú-bolin (belin) garo den mi nin, menel ista i demmin. (What is the literal translation of ú-bolin? Is that the word we should use?)

Don't let them in, don't let them see, be the good girl you always have to be.
Literal: People cannot come, people cannot see, be the good girl you always must be.
Gwaith ú-bolin tol, gwaith ú-bolin cen/tírad (which should I use?), no i iell/neth maer (again, which one?) ci ui boe na.

[Edited on 04/24/2014 by Alexanda]
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: April 24, 2014 08:40
I'll answer your questions first

(I'm not sure which one to use, faen, 'lân, or nimp. Which is more accurate?)


They're all accurate, it just depends which meaning you want!
Faen = radiant, white
Glân = bright shining white
Nimp = Pale, white

(What is the literal translation of ú-bolin? Is that the word we should use?)


The verb pol- = to be able to, can (because I have the physical capability) thus the literal translation is 'I cannot, (because I lack the capability)'.

no i iell/neth maer (again, which one?)


Iell = Daughter
Neth = Young teenage girl
Galadivren
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on: April 24, 2014 08:56
Heaven knows I tried = Menel ista i dhemmin (just missing the mutation)

People cannot come = Gwaith is more 'a people' as in a race (see 'Danwaith', 'Gaurwaith' etc.) What about simply Boe ú-delir = They must not come and Boe ú-genir = They must not see
Alexanda
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on: April 24, 2014 09:49
Thanks for the reply! As for "Boe ú-delir," there's no need to say "they," as it is implied right?

And also, suppose I choose "iell" for "daughter," I think I would need to change it because it's hard to say "i iell." Yet, mutations happen only to consonants, according to the mutations chart. Should I do anything to it?

Maxie can chip in her thoughts and ideas.
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: April 25, 2014 03:55
Alexanda said:Thanks for the reply! As for "Boe ú-delir," there's no need to say "they," as it is implied right?

No, it isn't implied, it's part of the verb.
Tol- = to come + -ir = 3rd person plural present tense


And also, suppose I choose "iell" for "daughter," I think I would need to change it because it's hard to say "i iell." Yet, mutations happen only to consonants, according to the mutations chart. Should I do anything to it?

Maxie can chip in her thoughts and ideas.


Why do you think it's hard to say? You wouldn't change it at all, as you're correct, you do not apply soft mutation to vowels. Remember that an I at the beginning of a word takes a 'y' sound, so it actually sounds exactly like the English word 'yell'.
lotrelessar94
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on: April 25, 2014 08:27
Hi guys! Haven't been on in a while... finishing up college :/

I just need a quick translation for a tattoo

"It is well with my soul."

That's it! Thanks, Sindarin Jedis!
"Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisoned by the enemy, don’t we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!"
findemaxam48
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on: April 25, 2014 04:55
"iell" for daughter sounds great, Alex. So, the next lines are...



Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know. Well, now they know.


I can't translate at the screen, I need my pen and paper. Same would go to you, Elessar, but I don't want to mess up something going on your skin. So I'll leave that work to Galadivren.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Galadivren
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on: April 26, 2014 04:37
lotrelessar94 said:Hi guys! Haven't been on in a while... finishing up college :/

I just need a quick translation for a tattoo

"It is well with my soul."

That's it! Thanks, Sindarin Jedis!


Actually not as easy to translate as you might hope, I'm afraid.

I can do it literally word for word:

Te mae adh i fae nîn = It is well with my soul

but I don't think it sounds 'right' in Sindarin.

I fae nîn mae = My soul is well
I fae nîn maer = My soul is good
Galadivren
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on: April 26, 2014 04:41
findemaxam48 said:"iell" for daughter sounds great, Alex. So, the next lines are...



Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know. Well, now they know.


I can't translate at the screen, I need my pen and paper. Same would go to you, Elessar, but I don't want to mess up something going on your skin. So I'll leave that work to Galadivren.


Delio, ú-felo, boe ú-istathar. Thî istar.

Delio = Conceal!
ú-felo = Do not feel!
boe ú-istathar = they must not know
Thî = now
istar = they know
Alexanda
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on: April 27, 2014 03:16
So "delir" is "tol" plus "ir" after mutation. But why is it "delir" instead of "dolir"? In my understanding, only the first letter changes in this type of mutation.
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Alexanda
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on: April 27, 2014 03:54
So far, we have this:
The snow glows white on the mountain tonight, not a footprint to be seen. A kingdom of isolation, and it looks like I'm the queen.
I loss dartha faen, erin orod i fuin hen, ú rein an gened. Arnad erui, a thia ni i vereth.
The wind is howling, like this swirling storm inside, cannot keep it in, heaven knows I tried.
I 'waew gâw, sui i alagos hen mi nin. ú-bolin (belin) garo den mi nin, menel ista i dhemmin.
Don't let them in, don't let them see, be the good girl you always have to be.
Boe ú-delir, boe ú-genir , no i iell maer ci ui boe na.
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know. Well, now they know.
Delio, ú-felo, boe ú-istathar. Thî istar. (Haha, you'll have to help me understand how "felo", "istathar", and "Thî" was achieved )

Here goes: Let it go, let it go, can't hold it back anymore.
Literal: Release it, release it, can't hold it...something
Leithia-ha (I don't think that's right...), leithia-ha, ú-bolin garo (or is it "ú-'aro"?) ha...
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: April 27, 2014 04:13
Right. All I-stem verbs (those that don't end in an a, like tol- cen- can- etc.) undergo what is known as I-mutation, hence tol- becomes telin = I come telir = they come. The -ir ending isn't mutating, just the base stem.
Galadivren
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on: April 27, 2014 04:15
Leithio den = release it.

Will reply to the rest later ☺
Galadivren
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on: April 27, 2014 06:41
Alexanda said: (Haha, you'll have to help me understand how "felo", "istathar", and "Thî" was achieved )


They're all attested words. The verb Fel- and the adverb Thî are in a journal called Parma Eldalamberon (number 17).
Istathar is made up of:
Ista- = to know
-thar = future tense 3rd person plural (they will know)


Here goes: Let it go, let it go, can't hold it back anymore.
Literal: Release it, release it, can't hold it...something
Leithia-ha (I don't think that's right...), leithia-ha, ú-bolin garo (or is it "ú-'aro"?) ha...


I think you're looking at the old Noldorin pronouns (or David Salo's work in the films, which is the same thing) with 'ha'. Later Sindarin uses 'den'.

As I said in a post above: Leithio den = Release it
(We know this is correct from Caro den in Tolkien's 'The Lord's Prayer')

'I can't hold it back anymore'. Again, not the easiest thing to translate, as you need a synonym for the phrasal verb 'hold back'.
You've done 'I can't hold' as in 'I cannot hold this pen (because I am unable to)'. We need something a little less literal, along the lines of:

ú-bolin den tabo = I cannot stop it
or
ú-debithon adui = I will not stop it again (moving away from the original meaning here though)

The phrase 'any more' doesn't exist in Sindarin as is.
Alexanda
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on: April 27, 2014 07:18
Ok so, "Leithio den, leithio den, ú-bolin den tabo." How's that? Or how about "I can't keep it"? Is it something like: "ú-bolin heb den"?
Eglerio Eru o I gely bân siriar. (Praise God from Whom all blessing flow)
Galadivren
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on: April 27, 2014 07:40
ú-bolin hebo den = I cannot keep it
Galadivren
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on: April 27, 2014 11:40
I just noticed this part

be the good girl you always have to be.
no i iell maer ci ui boe na.


Na- is the verb stem of the verb 'to be'.
This clause reads to me as 'Be the good daughter you are ever must (be)'. I'll have a think about how to reword it and get back to you.
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