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Galadivren
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on: March 23, 2015 09:56
Well, that's entirely up to you. Some of the information I have is more up to date than what's on here, for example, but it's all about which style of lessons suit you best. There's also Realelvish.net as a third option for lessons.
Varyalener
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on: March 28, 2015 04:05
Varyalener:

3) Anann dae dorthannon ne Nef Rast hen -> Anann dorthannen am i Nefrast hen

Since I'm supposed to translate "for too long" into sindarin (as line 3 reads "O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt..." ), first i thought of ananann as an adverb compounded by the adjective and "long", the intensive prefix an- (thus, anann meaning "too long" ) and the preposition an "to, for,... (etc.)" prefixed to all. However (and aside from ananann being somewhat odd for me), an adjective anann meaning "too long" could conflict with the attested adverb anann "(for) long". Though I don't believe this to be a problem (there are words in sindarin with different meanings but identical forms, such as min "one" and min "between the" ), I thought it could be better to find another way of saying "too long", so I came with anann dae; with the attested anann "(for) long" and dae supposed to mean something like "too, very, exceedingly", though this word is not attested (only daer "great" is attested) – I found dae glossed "too" at Parf Edhellen, where it is said to be imported from Parviphith. However, I'm not sure if I should really use dae.

Galadivren:

The redone version I gave you
Anann dorthannen am i Nevrast hen
reads literally as
Too long I dwelt apon this Hither Shore.

Which is near as damnit, word for word to the original. Sindarin doesn't have the capability of differentiating between the simple past and the perfect past, so it's both I dwelt, and I have dwelt.


Dorthannon is a wrong past tense, that was my mistake (the connecting vowel before the 1st person pronoun, except for the present and future tenses, is not o, but e, so the correct is dorthannen, just as you wrote). But the question was not about the verb, it was just about the use of dae for "too" in "too long I have dwelt". I really haven't thought of anann "for a long time" beeing used to express "for too long", "for an exceedingly loog time" at first... But, yes, it is pretty much the same.


Regarding "in the river", I thought better and came to the conclusion that nan hîr would not be that apropriate... Indeed, min hîr is better. And what do you think of erin hîr? Would it also do?

[Edited on 03/29/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: March 28, 2015 09:22
Erin hîr = on the river. Could work, yes, just gives it a different shade of meaning

Well, dae in that sense is reconstructed, and I'm not overly fond of it. Dae is also 'shadow' and the first part of words like daebeth = blasphemy (a shadow word, literally!) so I read it as that first. It is true that anann doesn't include a meaning of 'too long', it's 'I have dwelt long, I have dwelt for a long time', but you could also argue that given the speaker and the context, the 'too' is implied.
Sindarin doesn't have a word for 'too' in this sense as in 'too much'(eithro = too, also - but not the same unfortunately).

[Edited on 03/29/2015 by Galadivren]
Varyalener
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on: March 30, 2015 07:17
Yes, you're right, I can argue that anann dorthannen would mean "for too long I have dwelt" with the "too" being implied in the context. And that would be pretty fine. But, as it would be even better if I could use some sindarin that would translate "(for) too long", what do you think of my first solution, which was adding the intensive prefix a(n)- to the adjective and "long", obtaining anann "too long", then adding an "for" to anann "too long", thus obtaining anannan "for too long"? Of course, anann is already attested as "for long", so what do you think if I use it meaning "too long"?

Another question (that I forgot to make before) regarding in laiss:
The mutations chart in CoE workbook, under the column for nasal mutiation, gives IN L → I L, that's why I wrote i laiss. Does this need to be updated?

[Edited on 03/30/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: March 31, 2015 06:16
No, don't add a prefix to a word that already has one. That isn't a viable Sindarin word. You could always add the superlative though, Rau-anann = for the longest time.

I L or IN L, well they're both guesses ultimately as neither is attested, so pick which you prefer - I happened to choose the latter.
Varyalener
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on: March 31, 2015 07:46
I think I will go with i laiss[/]. I am more used to the way it sounds. Regarding [b]anann dorthanen, I prefer not to use the superlative for this translation and rather pick the first option you gave me: to assume that "too" is implied.

Also, regarding min hîr "in the river" and erin hîr "on the river", although both would do perfectly, I decided to use nan hîr, as you suggested , because I thought of it and came to the conclusion that using min hîr may not necessarily mean that the leaves were falling inside the river's water, but also may denote that they were falling in the area defined by both shores, what is very very close to, if not exactly, what I understood.

Well, thank you again and sorry for the complications!

Here is the translation with the corrections (tell me if there is still something that should be modified):


Novaer na Lórien

A Lórien! Rhîw tôl, i Aur baran a pen-lass,
I laiss dannar min hîr, i Dhuin edhrîb.
A Lórien! Anann dorthannen am i Nefrast hen
A mi rî beleth gonathrant i Elanor vallen.

[Edited on 03/31/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: April 01, 2015 06:15
But... I suggested using min instead of nan! Other way round!

You're missing mutation following 'a', pen needs to take soft mutation and become ben-lass.
Varyalener
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on: April 01, 2015 11:38
Yes, you suggested min, I don't know why that nan is doing there!

But I didn't use the soft mutation on pen-lass because of the a before it - a (non-adjectival) word breaking the sequence of adjectives directly following a noun, according to lesson 05 of the workbook here in CoE (if this is outdated, then pen-lass indeed must be lenited to ben-lass; otherwise I guess it's a matter of choice - another case of unattested examples?)

[Edited on 04/02/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: April 01, 2015 07:11
*hops off to examine the lesson*

No, sorry, that's rubbish. Tolkien specifically states in his notes that 'a' always causes soft mutation:
S a/adh has soft mutation but with ath before h-. Later S a- in all cases.

I would however agree that when you have more than one adjective, so 'the beautiful frail woman' you would write i vess vain mîw leaving the last adjective unmutated instead of i vess vain vîw.
Varyalener
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on: April 10, 2015 11:45
S a/adh has soft mutation but with ath before h-. Later S a- in all cases.


I didn't understand it at all...

I would however agree that when you have more than one adjective, so 'the beautiful frail woman' you would write i vess vain mîw leaving the last adjective unmutated instead of i vess vain vîw.


So why, in the attested mbass ilaurui vín "our daily bread", mín is lenited after ilaurui?
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: April 10, 2015 03:11
Vin is the possessive pronoun. I mbass ilaurui vin = the bread daily our, our daily bread.

The quote I posted from PE17 shows that in earlier Sindarin 'and' was 'a' or 'adh' before a vowel, with a variant of 'ath' before 'h', and that soft mutation applies to the word following it. It then says that in later Sindarin it is 'a' in all cases.

[Edited on 04/11/2015 by Galadivren]
Varyalener
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on: April 11, 2015 11:15
I got it (the quote from PE), thank you!

But:

later Sindarin it is 'a' in all cases

Even before a word that starts with a vowel (thus, for example, Noeg a Edhil instead of Noeg ah Edhil)?

Regarding the possessive, so it is vin (with short i) – not mín (with long í), lenited form vín. Ok. But given that, I have a problem, for the dictionaries that I'm using are DragonFlame (Hiswelókë) level 2.0 and Parf Edhellen, and both of them give mín (min) = adj. "our" and also (another entry) mín (but not min) = pron. "us". And if I want to learn (and write in) Sindarin correctly, I need wordlists that give me correct words. What can I do about this?

[Edited on 04/12/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
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on: April 11, 2015 03:18
Oh no no it is meant to have the long vowel, I'm on a tablet on hotel wifi and it auto corrected it.

And yes in later Sindarin it should always be 'a' if we follow Tolkien's notes
Varyalener
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on: April 12, 2015 11:42
I need a clarification. I don't understand why you told me that vín is the normal form of the possessive adjective rather than the lenited form of mín, since mín as "our" is attested in VT/44:21,22,28, according to Benjamin Babut's and Didier Willis' wordlist Hiswelókë/Dragon Flame.

Also, in that wordlist, the title Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth "Converse of Finrod and Andreth" is mentioned (entry ah). This title seems to show that a becomes ah before a vowel. Unless that Tolkien note you metioned somehow makes this obsolete. In addition, in the same entry (ah) it is written: "That a, ar and ah are etymologically related has finally been confirmed in VT43:29-30.

[Edited on 04/13/2015 by Varyalener]
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Galadivren
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on: April 13, 2015 01:12
It's both. It is mîn mutated (let's see if it will keep the diacritics today) and it is also the normal form.

Sellath din (Kings Letter). Generally assumed to be from a Te/Ti/Tîn but mutates to De/Dîn etc.

You have to remember that Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth is meant to be an early text, and that Doriathrin Sindarin uses different, earlier forms to Third Age Sindarin. I always use the latest forms unless I am specifically writing something that is meant to be either old in itself or spoken by an older speaker who has retained archaicisms.
You'll also see people write adh before a vowel. Neither of these are incorrect!

[Edited on 04/13/2015 by Galadivren]
Varyalener
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on: April 14, 2015 08:39
Thanks!!

I didn't know that Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth is meant to be Doriathrin. And also, Dragon Flame doesn't give this information. Indeed, I never seen this information anywhere, maybe because I've just started to learn elvish and I'm no linguist or the like, just a common person who have read LoTR trilogy and part of The Silmarillion and became interested in elvish language.


So that's the final version:


Novaer na Lórien

A Lórien! Rhîw tôl, i Aur baran a ben-lass,
I laiss dannar min hîr, i Dhuin edhrîb.
A Lórien! Anann dorthannen am i Nefrast hen
A mi rî beleth gonathrant i Elanor vallen.
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Cudìr
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on: May 31, 2015 07:10
I am trying to make a poem and would like help with one of the lines. For completeness here is the entire thing (it is for a spell verbal for a LARP I am in:
Tû Anna torthad. (Strength gives control)
Camtha len delu (it makes you deadly: this is the line I don't think works as is)
I goth Lin barad. (Your enemies [are] doomed)
Aen na úvarn, edlegi tû. (It can be unsafe, releasing physical strength)
Lotto den (control it)
Avluithio den (don't quench it).

This spell is part of a ritual to awaken am aspect of a person's savage nature.
i nui, ù i nui!!
boe iathegen gâr sigil.
Galadivren
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on: June 02, 2015 06:00
Camtha- means 'to accommodate, make fit', it doesn't have the meaning you're wanting here. I'm not actually sure the verb you need exists in Sindarin as what you need is 'cause to be' but that's just a verb affix (cause pain, cause to go, etc.) I'll have a think.

'It can be unsafe' is rather tricky to translate, but don't use 'aen'. It is a conditional, but means 'would, should' not 'can'. I'd personally just reword this and make it either 'It is unsafe' or use the reconstructed part of Na- and go for Natha aen úvarn = It will(would) be unsafe.
For 'releasing' you want the participle, adlegol = releasing
Edlegi looks like an i-mutated version of the infinitive.

For 'control it' = Tortho den (where's 'lotto' from?)


Cudìr
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on: June 03, 2015 02:30
Thank you for the help, my thoughts on why I used what I used:

Camtha- It was kind of a stretch, but I was using it as "to make fit the following statement" closest I could find to get what I wanted and I know it is a big stretch. If it is an attested verb affix that can be used on any verb, how about using in on Na-?

Aen This was really just my thoughts on translating aen in the present tense (since the lessons only mention using it in the future tense), I may stick with this and start it if I ever post it, unless there is another way of declaring a possibility (I don't want is because it sounds too definite, or would be because it sounds like an unfinished conditional)

Edlegi the exact translation I had in mind was "It can be dangerous, to release physical strength", english just uses the ing ending for so many of its verb types. The infinitive does cause i-affection right? or did I have that wrong even with the meaning I was using?

lotto I had to look back into my notes from when I made the first section of these to find out what happened here. This is a typo on top of a typo. My paper with this on it says lortho, but I can see back on the early notes where the pen tried to put the line on the t but chose that time to not dispense ink, so it became an l throughout. Thank you for catching that for me, easy fix to go through and make all those ls ts.

[Edited on 06/03/2015 by tiger667]
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Galadivren
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on: June 03, 2015 06:06
tiger667 said:Thank you for the help, my thoughts on why I used what I used:

Camtha- It was kind of a stretch, but I was using it as "to make fit the following statement" closest I could find to get what I wanted and I know it is a big stretch. If it is an attested verb affix that can be used on any verb, how about using in on Na-?

Oh no, definitely not.
By attested affix, I meant this...
The attested verb affixes we have are:
-YA (becoming -IA in Sindarin). Tendency to be intransitive. Beria-, Cuia-, Dilia- etc.
-TA (becoming -THA in Sindarin). Denotes an action on something, tendency to be transitive. Camtha-, Hortha-, Bartha- etc.
-â (mixed conjugation verbs). Rarer.

These can be used with a root to create a new verb from attested material, we can't just attach them to a verb, especially one as contentious as Na-.


Edlegi the exact translation I had in mind was "It can be dangerous, to release physical strength", english just uses the ing ending for so many of its verb types. The infinitive does cause i-affection right? or did I have that wrong even with the meaning I was using?

Infinitives don't exist in modern Sindarin. I'm going to have to remove them from my own lessons I think or put a large note saying what they're for and where they're from. The infinitive form of Adleg- would more likely be Adlegi.
Cudìr
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on: June 04, 2015 01:16
If the infinitive doesn't exist in modern Sindarin (which seems odd, having such an important verb form removed like that) what would be used for what I am trying to say (neither the gerund nor the present participle seem to fit)
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Galadivren
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on: June 05, 2015 06:20
You'll want the gerund of Adleg- (Adleged), as that makes it 'A release of physical strength' as opposed to the participle which is the adjective -ing form.
Cudìr
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on: June 05, 2015 04:21
So that would be ..., adleged o thû. Or does 'o' mean of as in coming from not like this use.
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Galadivren
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on: June 06, 2015 06:18
Yeah 'o(d)' is 'of' as in 'from, of a place'. The 'of' in this sentence is implied.
Cudìr
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on: June 06, 2015 02:31
What other words are implied in sentences? I know 'a', 'is', and 'are' and now 'of'. Are there more?
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Galadivren
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on: June 06, 2015 05:31
Nope, just those
Cudìr
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on: June 18, 2015 07:12
I'm trying to translate "don't overthink things" and I remember seeing a prefix for making a verb be doing in excess, but I can't find this anywhere, am I imagining things and if so is there a way to do this translation? (and if not, what is the prefix?)
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Galadivren
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on: June 19, 2015 07:26
Are you perhaps thinking of tre- when it attaches to a verb giving a mean of 'through to completion'? There isn't anything else that I can think of that might give you anywhere near that meaning.
Tyrhael
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on: June 19, 2015 03:36
Galadivren said:There isn't anything else that I can think of that might give you anywhere near that meaning.

The closest thing I can think of is "intensives" in PE18:85,88, but going from "shine" to "blaze", and "eat" to "devour, eat up" isn't quite the same as doing things in excess - just increased intensity, not necessarily 'too much' intensity. More importantly, I don't know whether that kind of formation would be feasible in Sindarin or not - as far as I'm aware only Quenya forms are currently attested.

[Edited on 06/20/2015 by Tyrhael]
Galadivren
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on: June 20, 2015 06:40
As in the intensive prefix/vowel reduplication? (Naur -> Anor, Sil -> Ithil etc.) Yeah I thought of that but that didn't seem to fit either.

[Edited on 06/20/2015 by Galadivren]
Tyrhael
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on: June 20, 2015 12:18
Galadivren said:As in the intensive prefix/vowel reduplication? (Naur -> Anor, Sil -> Ithil etc.) Yeah I thought of that but that didn't seem to fit either.


From prefixing the root-vowel and either doubling or nasalizing the first consonant, i.e. (in Quenya) mat- into ammat-, and kal- into akkal-, añkal-. But the meaning doesn't really fit. The only other things I can think of are words from Goldogrin, but those tend to clash in meaning with later ach.

[Edited on 06/21/2015 by Tyrhael]
Cudìr
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on: June 22, 2015 04:33
Thank you for the response, finding out there isn't a prefix for it made me think of other ways to do it and I have come up with something I would like to run by you guys.

Avo hâm athan noenas* (lit. do not think beyond sensibility)

edit: added asterisk to unattested word (abstract suffix added to noen)

[Edited on 06/23/2015 by tiger667]
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cre8iveovadose
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on: June 27, 2015 05:57
So I've been trying to translate my blog title into Sindarin using the CoE dictionary and Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary. My biggest problem has been being unable to find the exact words so I've tried some synonyms and am happy with what I've got so far but I'm not sure if the translation is correct.

The original phrase is "Here lies one whose name was writ in water" (what John Keats had put on his headstone).

I morphed it into "My name is written in water" and after some research and toiling over different sources, I translated it to "Nín eneth i teithan ne nen".

I'm feeling pretty confident with it but I'm mostly unsure of how to translate "written" as I couldn't find a guide to morphing things into different tenses. I also wasn't sure about my translation of "water" but I'm less fussed about that.

Does anybody have any tips? Help will be greatly appreciated
Here lies one whose name was writ in water.
Galadivren
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on: July 09, 2015 05:53
I eneth nîn teithannen mi nen = My name has been written in water (My name is written in water) is how I would translate it.

Teithannen = past participle 'has been x'.
Galadivren
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on: July 09, 2015 05:54
tiger667 said:Thank you for the response, finding out there isn't a prefix for it made me think of other ways to do it and I have come up with something I would like to run by you guys.

Avo hâm athan noenas* (lit. do not think beyond sensibility)

edit: added asterisk to unattested word (abstract suffix added to noen)

[Edited on 06/23/2015 by tiger667]


If you're using Sam- = to think it would be either Avhamo = Don't think! or Avo hamo = Don't think (Avo- can be attached to the verb as in Avgaro = Don't do it).
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