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Lokyt
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on: February 12, 2017 08:15
Ah, good to see another interesting attempt!
This will take me some time, so - be patient
timothyjm
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on: February 20, 2017 07:55
can you please help me
timothyjm
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on: February 20, 2017 07:55
can you please help me
Lokyt
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on: February 24, 2017 01:40
@ Lenielestel: Alright, here we go

• arthuilos is a clear mistake (concieved by someone more than a decade ago, it's a long story; if this had some meaning, it would be "a realm of those who are always white" ).
OK, we want "noble-white" as a name of a flower species. (There's no proof that the elves would name it like this, but on the other hand, it's consistent with their naming habits in general.) Edelweiss is indeed a snow-white flower, so gloss looks like a good start. And as for "noble", it depends on whether it's supposed to be "noble by overall excellence" (in which case we might choose arad- or -raud>-rod), "noble by dominant appearance" (brand) or "noble by pride, stubborn behaviour" (tar-). My choice would be the first (as that is the most common one in naming) or the third (as edeweiss is a high mountains flower surviving despite harsh natural conditions).
Therefore, how about *aradlos, *glothrod or *tarlos? Lack of one syllable can easily be solved by adding some harmless "padding", like "o, edelweiss" (a tarlos), "my edelweiss" (glothrod nín) etc. etc.

• "every morning you greet me" - I'd use suilodh, as the poet is praising the flower, i.e. showing it a high respect.
But I have no suggestions for "morning": in the 1950s-1960s, Tolkien apparently rejected all his words for this, but replaced them with nothing - so we're really stuck with "dawn" and "twilight" only.
"Every" (as a separate word) would most probably be derived from √IL, but the exact formation is unknown.
So perhaps the best I can think of is "you greet me (in) all dawns": suilodh nin minuiail bain.

• "small and white" - Here, I'd suggest to take advantage of the fact that two Common Eldarin words, niñkwi "pale, white" and nimpi "small, frail", gave the same Sindarin form nimp, later (in case of "pale, white" ) also nim. So why not use nimp a nim?

• "clean and bright" - Here, on the other hand, I would use glân; the actual meaning of this is "so bright that it seems white", which feels to me quite fitting for the flower. Fain (not **faen) refers either to objects that emit light of their own, or to the whiteness of clouds and fog.
And as for "and", its precise form depends on which one of multiple plausible theories about this conjunction you put your trust in
Together, you may get puig ah 'lân, puig adh 'lân or puig a glân.

• "you look happy to meet me" - Again, better to use thiodh (2nd pers. formal).
As for "meeting me, to meet me", the infinitive/gerund is wrong: govaned (not govaded, that's a Noldorin form, discarded by Tolkien) is basically "a meeting". You need the present active continuative participle govanol in order to get "you look happy (while) meeting".
And lucky for you, the object pronoun can also stay in its basic form (ni), in which case it causes a lenition to the following verb, elides its own vowel and together they form the final n'ovanol. Problem with the number of syllables nicely solved

• "blossom of snow" - If it's supposed to be "blossom made of snow" (though poetically and not literally), than it would be simply loth lossen (same as tawaren is "wooden" etc.).
Edlothio and galo are OK, and we can add "and" between them: edlothio ah 'alo / edlothio adh 'alo / edlothio a galo.
And nothing else is needed.

• " bloom and grow forever" - If necessary for a poetic use, edlothia- could surely be used without the prefix, as lothia-. Which helps with the number of syllables again.
And I wouldn't push uireb, an adjective with a specifically adjectival suffix, to an adverbial role, when there's 1) the analogical construction and (adj.) "long" > anann (adv.) "for long, for a long time", which we may take as a pattern for *anuireb "forever" (but that is too long), and 2) when we can simply say an-uir "for eternity".
So lothio, galo an-uir might do

• "bless my homeland" - We have the exact verb elia- "cause to prosper, bless". For "homeland", (m)bar is enough.
So, "bless my homeland forever" - elio bar nín anuireb? Or maybe better: elio i-mar nín an-uir.

[Edited on 02/25/2017 by Lokyt]
Lenielestel
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on: February 26, 2017 12:23
Bless you, Lokyt, you are a most excellent sharer of knowledge!

I have a couple follow up questions....

First, suilodh, thiodh. I thought the formal 2nd person ending for a stems was -ol. From whence comes this -dh? I don't doubt you are correct, I just have never seen this before.

Second, is this okay: Elio bar nín an-uir? I combined your two suggestions to make it fit the syllables. Is there a reason you used "bar" in one and "i-mar" in the other?

And finally, updated lyrics:

Aradlos, Aradlos,
Edelweiss, Edelweiss (noble-white)

Suilodh nin minuiail bain
Every morning you greet me
you-greet me (in) all dawns

Nimp a nim, puig a glân
Small and white, clean and bright
small and white, clean and bright-white

Thiodh gelir n'ovanol
You look happy to meet me
you-appear happy me meeting

Loth lossen edlothio a galo
Blossom of snow may you bloom and grow
flower of snow may-you-bloom, may-you-grow

Lothio, galo an-uir
Bloom and grow forever
may-you-bloom, may-you-grow for eternity

Aradlos, Aradlos,
Edelweiss, Edelweiss

Elio bar nín an-uir
Bless my homeland forever
bless home-land mine for eternity

Again, thank you, thank you for all your help. I learned at least 2 new words, and I love it when everything fits neatly into the music!
Lokyt
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on: February 26, 2017 01:58
You're welcome

I thought the formal 2nd person ending for a stems was -ol.
And so did many Sindarin fans for decades. But, alas, they were all wrong, which we learnt almost ten years ago, when Tolkien's full chart of present-tense conjugations was published in Parma Eldalamberon 17, p. 132.
From whence comes this -dh?
It turns that le "you (polite)" is a loanword from Quenya, having in many cases replaced the original, true Sindarin de. However, no such process affected the corresponding verb ending, where the original Sindarin -dh survives unchallenged by Quenya -l(ye).

Second, is this okay: Elio bar nín an-uir? I combined your two suggestions to make it fit the syllables.
Trouble is that there are plenty of strings of multiple vowel characters in Sindarin words and phrases, and sometimes we don't know if they represent monosyllabic diphtongs or multiple syllables.
For myself, I believe that elio is disyllabic (as elia- is one of ja-stem verbs, where the i-element was clearly non-syllabic in Common Eldarin) and uir is monosyllabic (primitive root √OJ + suffix -rē).
So what you propose is IMHO six syllables only (whereas you need seven, don't you).

Is there a reason you used "bar" in one and "i-mar" in the other?
Primarily, it was the number of syllables But besides that, I feel it more fitting to say "the home of mine" than "a home of mine" in this case. It's not just about any home(land) the poet might have, it's about THE one (and only) home he really has.

And finally, updated lyrics:
Apart from what's discussed above, they're OK with me (which doesn't necessarily mean that they're flawless, though).
Maybe only... I would put a comma after loth lossen.

[Edited on 02/26/2017 by Lokyt]
Lenielestel
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on: February 27, 2017 01:45
Ah, so (keeping in mind my first language is English) Elio would be pronounced "Ail-yo" rather than "Eh-Lee-Oh"? Makes sense.

One more question I forgot last time!

Concerning this line: Suilodh nin minuiail bain
Shouldn't it be "Nin suilodh...." to mean "you greet me"? Or can it go either way?

Thanks very much again and again!
Lokyt
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on: February 28, 2017 05:41
To be honest, I don't know.
There's no direct evidence of where an "accusative" pronominal object should be placed in a normal (prose) sentence with no expressed subject; and I never had time to study the indirect evidence and all the materials on the topic of pronoun syntax. So all I can say is that I'm unable to provide any objections against putting nin before the verb
Ealendil
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on: April 10, 2017 12:38
Hello. I am looking for a translation into Sindarin of the phrase "Dancing with the Spring wind". It is meant as a title for a musical event.

Relying upon my own resources i pieced togehter the following proposed translation "Lilthad am-Ethuil'waew". But I am no skilled student of Sindarin, so help here would be much appreciated.
Lokyt
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on: April 10, 2017 11:13
What does "dancing WITH the wind" exactly mean? Is the wind the other dancer, or does the dancing begin when the wind shows up?
Ealendil
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on: April 11, 2017 04:00
Here it would mean the wind as a partner. Imagine flying a kite and letting it dance with the wind.

[Edited on 04/12/2017 by Ealendil]
Lokyt
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on: April 11, 2017 09:05
In that case I would choose di for "with".
A compound of ethuil and gwaew would indeed be ethuilwaew, but alternatively, it might be alright to resort to simple gwaew ethuil as well.
Thus, lilthad di-ethuilwaew or lilthad di-'waew ethuil.
Ealendil
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on: April 11, 2017 10:11
Thank you Lokyt

Gwaew is more of a storm perhaps, so chosing the word sûl might be a better choice.

A compound of Ethuil and sûl would that be Ethuilhûl ?
Lokyt
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on: April 11, 2017 11:20
Well, I don't think the difference between gwaew and sûl is about the strength of the wind - and IMHO gwaew is the better choice for your cause (as it is "wind" as a force that visibly affects other objects - in contrast to sûl as an audible natural phenomenon, percieved with no regard to other entities).

Nevertheless, the compound would perhaps rather be just ethuilhul.

[Edited on 04/12/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: April 11, 2017 11:32
Thank you Lokyt for your input here
Ealendil
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on: May 10, 2017 11:02
Suilad mellyn,

Another translation attempt by me that need some serious checking.

This time I have looked at the lyrics to the song Herr Mannelig (sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herr_Mannelig). Found an english translation that I adopted to a Beleriand setting.

The song is going to be performed in LOTRO at one of the concert I am arranging. The aim is not to have all of the text translated to Sindarin, oh no, as most of those attending would not understand a word. Instead I though of translating the chorus from the second occurance and let only that one be in Sindarin.

The entire text might be too long show here but the chorus line in English is:

♫ Fair Elf, fair Elf
♫ Won't you marry me
♫ For all that I'll gladly give you
♫ You may answer only yes or no
♫ Will you do so or not

Now in my translation attempt I put together something like this a first attempt:

♫ Bain Edhel, bain Edhel,
♫ Ni mestathog
♫ An gell nîn, ant annon naeg
♫ Athog aphod egor baw
♫ De carathon egor avon

Please have a look at it, and suggest any corrections needed.


[Edited on 05/11/2017 by Ealendil]
Lokyt
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on: May 11, 2017 07:39
Alright, a lot to do here

First question - who is the person offering the marriage? Male, female? Elf, human?
Ealendil
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on: May 12, 2017 04:22
Hey Lokyt

In the original song (a medieval ballad from Södermanland in Sweden) the offering is made by a mountain troll (swedish folklore is full of them ). Here, I exchanged the troll for a forest spirit, somehow cursed and trying to get an elf to marry her to lift that curse (in swedish folklore it is not uncommon for a witch to be cursed to live as a troll, and only way to break it is to trick someone into marriage, the beauty and the beast saga). The troll is making one offering after another to the elf, to get him to agree. Unfortunately, in the end, he spurns her. As she is a creature of shadows and lies.

Well, that's the geist of the story. Hope it helps. If you want the full english version I'll mail it too you.

/Ealendil
Lokyt
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on: May 12, 2017 07:43
Ah, thank you. But I really only needed the species and the gender.
So it's female non-elf, OK. That means she should best address the hopefully-to-be-husband as ellon (specifically "a male elf" ).
Now, "fair, beautiful"... Well, there's bain ("beautiful because of lack of flaws or damage" ) and dail ("beautiful because of slederness, delicacy, lack of uncouthness" ). Which one fits your elf better?

[Edited on 05/12/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: May 12, 2017 02:53
Ah one could address an elf with ellon, as in "Greetings ellon" or "My dear ellyth". I always thought those were used in third person.

Hmm... looking at the two I think bain suits more, the spirit is praising the physical beauty more in the first sense.
Kyrstiel
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on: May 13, 2017 04:21
Good Morning... I have been struggling with a very simply phrase and the word I have the most difficulty with you would think to be very simple. It is the word welcome"

In context what I wish to say is:

Welcome to the Riders of Middle-earth

So far I have....

nan Rechyn Ennoruin (to the Riders of Middle-earth/my Kinship name in LoTro)

I have not seen any direct translation for Welcome in the CoE dictionary though. The only notes I found on this were a part of phrase sites and the word Nathlo was used a one site. and Mae tollen (well + come... but come is tolo not tollen?) I of course don't trust in the accuracy of every site out there !

And so.... what would be the correct way to express this? !

I have also come up with this as a possible way to express my feelings of welcome, but am not sure if my sentence structure is correct.

Gelir Im le tol nan Rechyn Ennoruin

English literally= Happy I am you come to the Riders of Middle-Earth !

I almost feel there would be a way to combine the words Gelir and Im (Gelirin?) into one ... also tol and le. Would tollen then mean "you have come?" And so Mae Tollen would mean (it is) Well (that) you have come?


[Edited on 05/13/2017 by Kyrstiel]

[Edited on 05/14/2017 by Kyrstiel]

[Edited on 05/14/2017 by Kyrstiel]
Lokyt
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on: May 14, 2017 07:25
@ Ealendil:

As for ellon... Well, you can always address any entity using the noun denoting that entity, can't you?

OK, so: "a fair elvish man" is ellon vain (an adjective follows! the noun it specifies).
But this is poetry again, so - shouldn't we keep the number of syllables? If it is the case, than... Well, "fair elf" will always be at least trisyllabic in "normal" Sindarin (i.e. if you don't want to use ell, which is an attested poetic term, but a loanword from Quenya and moreover meaning "elf" as a race). So repeating it isn't an option. But we can again resort to simple solutions like "my beautiful elf", "oh, beautiful elf" etc.

Now, "will you marry me?"... This is particularely complicated. But I'll skip the detailes and say only that having chosen the root BES- for words like "wedding", "matrimony", "husband" etc. (which is just one of multiple plausible options), we still need to construct our own verb "to wed, marry", as there is none coined by Tolkien.
One possible way is imitating attested Quenya vesta-, which would indeed give us Sindarin *besta- (not *mesta-).
Another way is to take notice that in the earliest period of Tolkien's work, the Quenya verb was already derived from its root using -ta-, but the Goldogrin verb contained a different derivative suffix, -na-. Taking use of this one, we would arrive at Sindarin *benna-. And I'd prefer the latter
So "will you marry me?" = bennathod nin? (Or bestathod nin, if you please). Putting the pronoun (in the form of ni) before the verb is AFAIK also possible.
And adding the negative form ("will you not..?"; regardless of whether such an idiom is even permitted in Sindarin), we should get ú-vennathod (ú-vestathod) nin. Which fits well.

Now about "for all that I'll gladly give you".
I'm not sure what is this "for" supposed to mean. Is it "because" in this case? Or is it like "the reason (why you should marry me) are all those things I'll give you"?

[Edited on 05/14/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: May 14, 2017 02:08
Hey Lokyt

Marvelous work.

Hmm, you are right about that the number of syllabes should be preserved, but in the original lyrics the repeated syllabes were actually four, so I have already broken the rythm Going back to "ellon vain" repairs the rythm somewhat.

Whether to say "will you marry me?" or "will you not marry?" (which is more of a plead i believe). I have no clue if such a construct is possible either in Sindarin, but I like the last one. So "ú-vennathod nin?" looks more poetical to me

"For" implies the reason(s), the because. She is trying to bribe the elf with different gifts.

/Ealendil
Lokyt
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on: May 15, 2017 03:41
Ealendil said: Going back to "ellon vain" repairs the rythm somewhat.
And adding some "oh" or "my" repairs it completely (as I already said)

OK, so the third line actually means "(will you marry me?) in order to get (fom me) all those things that I would (in that case) gladly give you", right?
Well, it's too many words for 8 syllables of Sindarin lyrics But I believe we can omit some of them while still retaining the basic meaning.

I must admit, though, that I'm not sure what this an gell nîn, ant annon naeg of yours was meant to be; I would translate it as (somewhat cracked) "to a wet joy, a gift I give pain"... Am I missing something?

My solution would be to start with the construction "(in order) to get...".
There's no "get" in the known Sindarin, but gar- "have" can certainly stand in as well. So based on attested an edraith ammen "to rescue us" (with a gerund on primitive -ijē) and the noun besain (showing the Sindarin developement of primitive -anijē), I'd guess it might be an-ngair an-...
Now we add naid "things" as the object of such a giving - and arrive at an-ngair an-naid. Good, it's just 4 syllables.
"I will give" is annathon, "I will give (to) you" (judging from attested le linnathon "I will sing to you" ) would be l'annathon. Still one syllable left.
And that's all we need for the relative element i "that".
So the result would be an-ngair an-naid i l'annathon "(in order) to have things that I'll give you". Will that be enough?

[Edited on 05/15/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: May 15, 2017 03:57
Thank you Lokyt.

Beautiful solution for third line, and yes, it will fit nicely.

To the first line could be added "my", but isnt the "i" needed as well, as in "i ellon vain nîn"? Or is it possible to omit the "î", or even start the phrase with "nîn", as in "nîn ellon vain"? Then again, "a" could be inerted in the beginning as "a ellon vain".

"A ellon, vain, a ellon vain"
"ú-vennathod nin"
"An-ngair an-naid i l'annathon"


*smiles*
Lokyt
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on: May 15, 2017 06:29
Yes, I would also prefer a, ellon vain. And since it's 4 syllables already (same as "fair elf, fair elf" ), than - is there a reason to double it?

OK, today's piece: "you may answer only yes or no", 9 syllables.
It's too many words again, let alone that we know no attested "may, can". (By the way, the infinitive of aphed- is apheded, and baw is not "no" as an answer, but only as an order.)
How about "say just one word: 'I will' or 'no'"? That would be pedo (imperative of ped- "say" ) beth (i.e. peth mutated) er ("only, single" ): 'athon' egor 'ú' (which is the normal "no" ).

[Edited on 05/16/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: May 15, 2017 07:46
Heya

In the original lyrics it is repeated twice, so I wnated to preserve that. Didn't know that "baw" was used in that sense, thanks.
How about "say just one word: 'I will' or 'no'"? ... pedo beth er: 'athon' egor 'ú'

Looks good, it will fit nicely, preserving the intent of the original lyrics.

"A, ellon vain; a, ellon vain"
"Ú-vennathod nin"
"An-ngair an-naid i l'annathon"
"Pedo beth er: 'athon' egor 'ú'"

/Ealendil

[Edited on 05/16/2017 by Ealendil]

[Edited on 05/16/2017 by Ealendil]

[Edited on 05/16/2017 by Ealendil]
Lokyt
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on: May 17, 2017 09:50
Fine, let's finish it.

"Will you do it or not?" A literal translation would AFAIK be carathodh den egor ú / da carathodh egor ú; but that's too long again.
So... Maybe "what (is) your answer to me?" - man dangweth lein annin (where lein is "your" )?

And two more things:
1) I totally forgot about developement of consonants in non-initial positions... ú-vennathod is wrong, ú-vennathodh is correct. (Or at least it should be. But I'm not sure if these th and dh can stand in such an adjacency...)
2) My apologies, athon cannot exist as a standalone word at all. I suppose nidhin "I am willing to (do something)" must be used instead.

[Edited on 05/17/2017 by Lokyt]
Ealendil
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on: May 17, 2017 06:04
Hey Lokyt,

Yes, the literal translation is too long, either by 1 or 2 syllabes. Rewriting "Will you do it or not?" to "What (is) your answer to me?" is a different way of phrasing it, but I think it will preserve the original intent. So "Man dangweth lein annin" will be used.

Ah, ok, good to know anout the word "athon", then the word "nidhin" will be used instead, it is a fitting replacement.

"A, ellon vain; a, ellon vain"
"Ú-vennathodh nin"
"An-ngair an-naid i l'annathon"
"Pedo beth er: 'nidhin' egor 'ú'"
"Man dangweth lein annin"

Thanks a million Lokyt for the time you took to help me, and the care and patience you have shown. It is really appreciated, especially your pedagogical approach, I feel richer for it.

/Ealendil
archonfield
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on: May 19, 2017 01:45
Hello fellow Council members.

To start of with I wonder if this is the thread you ask for help with translations, if not please tell me and I will remove the post. Otherwise I have a question. I have been searching around for a translation of the phrase Mountain song and only seem to find individual translations. As I am a newbie to the sindarin language I have to ask if there are any grammatics that stops me from just pasting the words together, for example: Aegas glîr

/archon

[Edited on 05/19/2017 by archonfield]
Lokyt
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on: May 20, 2017 03:45
Hello,
I think you've placed your query at a right place

The answer you're askig for is: yes, there most certaily are grammatical rules banning constructions like this **aegas glîr.
First of all, in Sindarin, specifiers (like adjectives) follow the objects they describe. "Mountain" in "Mountain Song" is an adjective (though its form shows no difference from the corresponding noun "a mountain"; English is confusing in this regard), its Sindarin counterpart must follow the noun (g)lîr.
Then, it is important to know what does this "mountain song" really mean. Is it a song sung by mountains? Or a song from mountains (i.e. created by people living there)? Or a song about mountains? The exact way of attaching aegas to the preceding (g)lîr depends on that.
And last but not least, you can always spare yourself all this by creating a single compound word In that case, the specifier actually precedes the object (as in English); but it also changes its form in accordance with relevant rules. Thus, aegas + (g)lîr (putting aside the question whether such a combination is possible at all) would AFAIK form *aegethlir.

[Edited on 05/20/2017 by Lokyt]
Maranwe_Daughterof_Elrond
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on: May 23, 2017 08:20
Can anyone translate a battle cry for me? It's "Arrows of Celduin come to aid!"
Lokyt
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on: May 27, 2017 02:57
Maranwe_Daughterof_Elrond said: "Arrows of Celduin come to aid!"
I think Pilinn Celduin, tolo an-ethiad! might be a plausible translation.
Maranwe_Daughterof_Elrond
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on: May 30, 2017 03:05
Might be...?
Lokyt
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on: May 31, 2017 09:28
Yep, "might be" - meaning "and yet might not".
We know no attested Sindarin word for "arrow" (all we have besides Quenya is from 1910's-1920's, decades before Sindarin even got its name). Sindarin genitive constructions (like this "of Celduin" ) are a big unsolved puzzle. And the only known word for "to help" is (due to some oddities of its etymology) in fact homonymous with another word, "to stab", which quite limits our options when we need to derive a noun from it.
Considering all this, there is no translation of your sentence that would be doubtlessly correct; there are only those with least thinkable objections against them.

[Edited on 05/31/2017 by Lokyt]
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