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Lady_Rotherane
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Post How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 16, 2010 02:56
So i (think i) know that when Maedhros was captured, roughly six days passed from then til when Fingolfin's people entered Dor Daedeloth, and that soon after that Fingolfin lead them to Hithlum, where Fingolfin and Feanor's people kinda jockeyed their camps around Lake Mirhtim. So how long did it take for Fingon to decide to go save his cousin, and how long was his journey to Thangorodrim? I'm reading all through the Silmarillion and i can't find it anywhere. Is this just something that wasn't mentioned? Or am i looking past it? Any help would be much appreciated. Shpanks!

-LR
Gwenniel
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 17, 2010 06:56
This is something I too have been wondering. I have read lots of stuff in HoME. I don't have them with me right now, but if reading Annals of Aman etc. Correct me if I'm wrong! I think I have found somewhat of an answer:

He hung about (and I mean approximately, I could be wrong)
4 Years of the trees
ca. 5 Years of the Sun
whether it is accurate or not, it's an immensely long time. A year of the trees, being so unfathomably long.

I took these calculations from http://home.comcast.net/~mithrandircq/Silmarillion-Chronology.htm (it also includes a timeline)
1 hour of the Trees = 7 hours of our time
1 day of the Trees = (7*12) 84 hours of our time
1 year of the Trees = (7 * 12000) 84000 hours of our time
Based on this we have 8766 hours in a Sun year ( 365.25 * 24) and therefore:
1 year of the Trees = (84000/8766) 9.582 Sun Years

That's crazy! How on Arda did Maedhros survive? Did Morgoth put him under a spell as he did with Húrin? I must say I'm confused with this too.
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Lady_Rotherane
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 17, 2010 07:45
Oh man. That really was a long frickin time! Are you serious?! I mean, i suppose that it *could* work, seeing as how Maedhros had seen the light of the trees and was made of some pretty strong stuff, but it still. It seems very, very awful.

The only resource i have is the Silmarillion, and it makes me feel stupid to ask exactly what is this/are these HoME? Because nobody has bothered to put down the full name for them anywhere that i can see so far.

Btw: Thank you so much for the link to that site. I'm definately going to use it from now on!
Gwenniel
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 17, 2010 07:55
HoME: History of Middle-Earth. Huge book collection with 12 parts including non-published early drafts on Tolkien's works, both for Lotr and Silmarillion. Basically from where Christopher compiled the Silmarillion. Has all kinds of nice details in them, but are tough to read...
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Elthir
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 19, 2010 04:48
We can't know exactly in Sun Years, as it's hard to say in which 'year' of the Valian Year this began, but by my account...

VY 1498 Maedros imprisoned by the wrist

VY 1500

In 1500 Fingolfin set foot upon the Northern Lands with the first moon-rise, and the Sun arose -- according to the Annals of Aman -- and this is also noted under Year 1 of the Sun in The Grey Annals.

Sun Year 5 rescue of Maedros.

So using 9.582 and approximating... let's say a while!
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: December 27, 2010 08:38
Maedhros was rescued in SY 5 after being ambushed by Morgoth's Orcs - exact date unknown. We do know the Noldor arrived at Helcarexë in YT 4997. If Maedhros was captured around that time, he would have been pinned to Thangorodrim for (about):

3 x 9.582 = 28.746 ----> let's say 29 + 5 = 34 years.

Unfortunately, unlike the Lord of the Rings, there are no exact dates for the Silmarillion events, which is somewhat frustrating to Silcentric members.

This is another excellent source for timelines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Middle-earth


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Elthir
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: December 27, 2010 08:52
The dating on the Wikipedia page just noted is somewhat different, but my numbering (VY 149 reflects the book sources in any event.

In case anyone is wondering!

Again we can speculate when looking for a more exact amount of time, but we don't know in which 'year' (of the 9.582) of 1498 that Maedros was actually captive by the wrist.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: October 22, 2011 03:58
*bump
Elthir
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: October 26, 2011 04:05
Ok, I think I finally figured out my confusion here...

(...) We do know the Noldor arrived at Helcarexë in YT 4997. If Maedhros was captured around that time, he would have been pinned to Thangorodrim for (about): 3 x 9.582 = 28.746 ----> let's say 29 + 5 = 34 years.


The use of '4997' shows that the date from the wikipedia timeline is being used -- but note that that timeline (currently) simply relates that Maedros was captured in this Valian Year (which is actually what the first post seems to ask about in any event). Also...

Wikipedia wrote: For consistency, all dates prior to the first sunrise have been given in Valian years. These can be converted to Years of the Lamps by subtracting 1900 or Years of the Trees by subtracting 3500.


OK, but this just confuses things in my opinion, as one must subtract 3500 here to arrive at the dates Tolkien actually used in the books! but doing so: Maedros was captured in 1497 but not yet held captive by the wrist until 1498, according to the Grey Annals.


So Wikipedia (currently) is correct with respect to the capture of Maedros, but he was not bound by the wrist upon the precipice until a year later...

... but possibly a number of years later, in Sun Years
SongofNimrodel
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: October 28, 2011 04:43
I always wondered, how did he not starve to death? Because i really doubt Morgoth was sending meals up... i mean, he hung the guy by his wrist!

But is starving to death possible for elves? They can't die of sickness, and starvation isn't listed among the things that kill elves... but can it be assumed? It says they can be slain with weapons, but doesn't mention they can die by falling off a cliff or jumping in fire or freezing to death on Helcaraxe, but those all happened... is starving to death sickness?

Sorry, i'm getting a little off-topic...
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Elthir
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: October 29, 2011 04:46
But is starving to death possible for elves?


In my opinion yes; especially based on dialog between Tuor and Voronwe in the early 1950s Fall of Gondolin (Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin), including references to lembas, or 'journey bread'.

In general I doubt Tolkien imagined the incarnates as able to do without food -- even the self-incarnated, if they became wedded to their bodies that is, had to eat in my opinion.
Huin
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: October 29, 2011 01:14
I think, if Elves are capable of starving, that Melkor would have good motivation to occasionally toss Maedhros a scrap of food. Prolonging his suffering would appeal to Melkor, even if it meant doing him the occasional temporary kindness of feeding him.
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 01, 2011 06:25
Personally, I believe that Morgoth put some kind of spell on Maedhros, so that he wouldn't perish. A similar spell was later used on Húrin.
tarcolan
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Post RE: How long before maedhros was rescued?
on: November 01, 2011 10:18
Good suggestion. After all, I think Maedhros would have refused to eat and starved to death. Morgoth wanted him alive. Elves are immortal but not indestructible, and if they could manage without food they wouldn't need lembas.
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