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moderndancer_elf
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Post About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 11, 2011 06:16
I am kind of curious because I have heard about Maeglin, the one who betrayed the Elves, and I was kind of curious about him.

Can anyone tell me what Maeglin was like? How to pronounce his name? What he looked like? Why exactly did he betray the elves?
~nólemë~
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 11, 2011 09:03
http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sil&file=index&req=viewarticle&silartid=7&page=2

(last entry in the third section- House of Fingolfin, there you have Maeglin summarized in one picture and one line )

or

http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Encyclopedia&file=index&action=DisplayTerm&pn_vid=&pn_id=4423

(more details on Maeglin from our encyclopedia)

Also, if you read The Silmarillion, you'll find an entire chapter there about his sad (and not so sad) life
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Elthir
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 03:42
And here's what it says about Maeglin in the link...

Maeglin ['my-gleen'] - son of Aredhel and Eöl the Dark Elf; a great smith; betrayed the location of Gondolin to Morgoth; killed in the Fall of Gondolin.


And I quibble with...

A) the pronunciation, as I think Grey-elven short i should sound like the vowel in English 'sick' instead of 'machine'.

B) Also I contend that Hurin, unwittingly but somewhat foolishly, betrayed the location of Gondolin -- according to Tolkien's revised tale.


Now as far as the 1977 constructed Silmarillion goes, Christopher Tolkien 'blended' both early and late ideas -- which I have no problem with given the textual problems he was up against -- but by doing so he tips the scales in Maeglin's 'favor' concerning this deed (or 'unfavor' I might say), which is why this description in the link is admittedly the accepted version of things (or most popular).

But if one looks only at the late idea and the attending notes concerning Maeglin's capture, one need not necessarily assume that Morgoth wasn't already well enough informed about the location of Gondolin. And again I'm not saying that Christopher Tolkien 'assumed' this, but he had to write something in The Silmarillion, and make a choice based on the actual texts available to him, where the reader has the freedom to imagine that Tolkien's notes might suffice to tell the 'true' history of Gondolin.

Maeglin still gave Morgoth what he wanted, but in my opinion he didn't necessarily give Morgoth the location of Gondolin -- and he may have added specifics that could be characterized as 'location information', but I'm saying Hurin unknowingly gave Morgoth enough to go on for an assault...

... and Maeglin was taken before an assault in any case.
~nólemë~
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 08:57
True, Elthir, but a short guidebook for newbies and 'eternal beginners' has to be brief, simple and uncontroversial

yes, the Pronunciation was hard to do- in this case, it was a choice between two undesirable pronunciations: the reduced one that [glin] would bring, and an overly long one [gleen]. [glihn]would have been a nice solution for an in-between sound, but alas, a not very newbie-friendly one- too difficult a cluster to puzzle over
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
cirdaneth
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 09:30
moderndancer_elf ... I followed the link to your FaceBook page and note that Tolkien's writing is not among your cited books, although you choose LotR for movies. Time to get reading I think.
Elthir
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 09:47
True, Elthir, but a short guidebook for newbies and 'eternal beginners' has to be brief, simple and uncontroversial


Oh I realize that, and agree. But it gave me something to post


yes, the Pronunciation was hard to do- in this case, it was a choice between two undesirable pronunciations: the reduced one that [glin] would bring, and an overly long one [gleen]. [glihn]would have been a nice solution for an in-between sound, but alas, a not very newbie-friendly one- too difficult a cluster to puzzle over


I'm not talking about length though, but vowel quality. Here's a discussion:

http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=28990

But of course I don't expect that somewhat confusing matter to be approached in a quick and easy guide either!


In any case I'm a bit surprised to be (seemingly) agreed with about Hurin
~nólemë~
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 11:08
I'm not talking about length though, but vowel quality


I tried my best to point out the existence of this issue in general in the Pronunciation Guide (as our three Elvish consultants can testify... I spent ages badgering them for information on the best transcriptions ). Let's hope the users read it
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
moderndancer_elf
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 02:22
moderndancer_elf ... I followed the link to your FaceBook page and note that Tolkien's writing is not among your cited books, although you choose LotR for movies. Time to get reading I think.


Oh, no, I'm reading the books, I started reading the first book of LOTR and I am now finishing it, so I should be moving on to the second one soon. Thanks for pointing that out actually, I completely forget that Tolkien's books weren't even on there. I've been so busy lately that I haven't even had the time to do that, so sorry about that lol. I'll go do that right now. Oh, and call me Faerlan if you wish .
moderndancer_elf
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 03:22
True, Elthir, but a short guidebook for newbies and 'eternal beginners' has to be brief, simple and uncontroversial

yes, the Pronunciation was hard to do- in this case, it was a choice between two undesirable pronunciations: the reduced one that [glin] would bring, and an overly long one [gleen]. [glihn]would have been a nice solution for an in-between sound, but alas, a not very newbie-friendly one- too difficult a cluster to puzzle over


Hahahahaha ^^ boy, do I certainly feel like an outcast! lol jk

Well, I think it seems fairly easy (i think? :S). I haven't read The Silmarillion yet, I am only on the first book-soon to be going on the second book-of LOTR, but I was generally curious about Maeglin because I heard the name in a fanfic. It only explained that he betrayed his own kin, so, naturally, I got curious to who he was. Thanks for the information, though, to both you and Elthir
LadyBrooke
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 04:41
I agree about Hurin, too. It was stupid to let him go and against the rules of Gondolin. I'm a Maeglin fangirl, though.

I hope you enjoy the rest of LotR, moderndancer. :hug: Are you planning to read the Silmarillion after you finish LotR?
moderndancer_elf
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 12, 2011 07:37
Yes, I plan on reading the Silmarillion once I am done with the series. If I don't get it for Easter, I might just go to Borders or Barnes and Nobles and get it once my next pay check comes up. And thanks :hug:

I'm guilty for being a Legolas fangirl :blush: . Yes, I know, kinda common, but I am also a Lord Elrond and Gimli fangirl. Gimli sure is pretty hilarious in the books, so far
Elthir
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 13, 2011 04:32
Spoiler Alert (since I raised the matter, I thought I would at least post the notes I'm referring to)

Moderndancer_elf I strongly suggest that you not read this (well, if you were going to! I mean) and wait to read the books first -- wait for the magic of The Silmarillion itself!

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Most people know the following because Christopher Tolkien used it for the 1977 Silmarillion. 'Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.'

JRRT, The Wanderings of Húrin, The War of the Jewels (used in Of the Ruin of Doriath, The Silmarillion). But here are the notes only HME readers might be aware of:

'At this point in the draft manuscript my father wrote: 'Later when captured and Maeglin wished to buy his release with treachery, Morgoth must answer laughing, saying: Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded! So Maeglin was obliged to offer more -- to undermine resistance in Gondolin.'

[a further note of almost exact wording adds] 'and to compass the death of Tuor and Earendil if he could. If he did he would be allowed to retain Idril (said Morgoth).' Note 30 The Wanderings of Húrin


So this, it seems to me, is a rather significant change. If I recall correctly, in earlier versions of the Túrin saga, Húrin's release did not reveal the location of Gondolin in any measure, thus the text above from The Wanderings of Húrin is a newer conception.

But Christopher Tolkien was putting together The Silmarillion, and in that tradition the specifically Silmarillion text relating to this matter still dated from 1930, which is quite early, in which Maeglin revealed the location of Gondolin. So CJRT used both, and added the word 'very' to the 1930 version, meaning that for the 1977 Silmarillion the text now stated that Maeglin revealed the 'very' location of Gondolin, implying (or possibly implying at least) that Hurin's revelation revealed only a general location, and that Maeglin was still needed for location.

It was an interesting problem, and even if my thoughts are 'correct' here, again I'm not criticizing the way Christopher Tolkien chose to approach this. Something of a mix was possibly what Tolkien intended, but if we take the 1930 version out of the mix (if it represented an old, out of date idea by the 1950s and later), then it seems that Maeglin brought 'stale news' with him.

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I think this is interesting too, when we compare the later idea with a very early idea, in which Morgoth (Melko) already knew where Gondolin was before he captured Maeglin (Meglin): in the early long prose Fall of Gondolin Melko's spies see Gondolin from afar, 'but into the plain they could not win for the vigilance of its guardians and the difficulty of those mountains. Indeed the Gondothlim were mighty archers...'

But Melko would arguably like to know as much as possible about the city, not simply location. Enter Meglin. Later Melko withdrew his spies 'for every path and corner of the mountains was now known to him', but Meglin had supplied needed information as well: 'and Meglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms (...) and the countless hoard of weapons (...) of the engines of war.' And still Meglin said that Morgoth could not avail against Gondolin, and he counselled Melko how to do so.

What I'm driving at here is that the 'new' idea could be, in general anyway, a return to the old idea.


Sorry for the length in any case!
moderndancer_elf
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Post RE: About Maeglin-the Traitor of the Elves
on: April 13, 2011 06:42
Moderndancer_elf I strongly suggest that you not read this (well, if you were going to! I mean) and wait to read the books first -- wait for the magic of The Silmarillion itself!



Please, Elthir, call me Faerlan, I prefer to be called that over my username. And if you are wondering, I did not read the spoilers. Though I do like spoilers in a way, I decided to just read the book and become surprised this time. Thanks for the warning .
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