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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 17, 2011 03:45
This question was asked a few years ago in the the Book Club, and I still wonder about it, given the high esteem with which everyone looked at Legolas; the son of Thranduil, and Prince of the Mirkwood Elves
Each time that Bilbo and the Dwarves approached the Mirkwood Elves and their 'celebration' they were lead further into danger , and finally into the clutches of the Spiders. The only way they were saved was by Bilbo and the Ring
Were the Mirkwood Elves so callous that they deliberately led the Dwarves to that part of Mirkwood and left left them to become victims of the spiders?
Elthir
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 17, 2011 11:59
Hmm, for myself I see no indication of that... according to the Elves they thought the Dwarves were attacking them, noting too that it was the Dwarves who roused the Spiders.

Whether it was the fault of the Dwarves or not, I see no reason to question what the Elves thought here, nor inject the idea raised by your question.

And not that you said or implied otherwise, but we can note that this isn't an Elvish account as well, it's Bilbo's: 'Still Elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.' Flies And Spiders
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 18, 2011 12:10
I felt that Thranduil's claims of thinking the Dwarves were attacking was more of a negotiating ploy rather than truth. The Dwarves didn't have weapons drawn and none of their comments indicated attack. If they thought that they were under attack why would the Elves so quickly restart the banquet?

[Edited on 18/4/2011 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Elthir
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 18, 2011 02:39
The text notes that if the Elves have a fault, it is distrust of strangers, and thus it would seem they have a magical (and arguably 'automatic') defense against strangers who appear to run at them in the night. Externally I think we have here an echo of mortals breaking a fairy-ring: the immortals 'vanish' -- with the mortals cast into bewilderment and dream.


Anyway, did the Elves try to feast again? Yes; but they are minding their own business, and after the first encounter the Dwarves might have guessed they had put the Elves on edge, who now could reasonably be expected to be more wary.

Moreover I think the text even confirms the idea that it was the Dwarves who roused the Spiders (arguably putting the Elves in danger even if the Dwarves knew it wasn't intentional):

'After blundering frantically in the gloom, falling over logs, bumping crash into trees, and shouting and calling till they must have waked everything in the forest for miles, at last they managed...'


Thorin admits that the Dwarves likely frightened the Elves, thus his plan to send Bilbo, but the Elves are already in automatic defense mode -- again especially now -- yet they do not harm anyone, only flee and try to attend to their business (which they have every right to attend to). And the Dwarves 'shout and call' a second time... and a third time: 'the wood was filled again with their clamour and their cries.'


So the reader is given reason to believe that the Dwarves roused the spiders, and no real reason to think that the Elves -- Good Folk in general -- were so malicious as to be luring the Dwarves to their deaths (as the Elves would surely expect if they were deliberately leading someone to the Spiders). The text also notes the ancient days when there had been strife with Dwarves, and that Thorin was thought an enemy simply by being a dwarf -- or at least possibly so, giving more credence to why the Elves thought what they thought.

'for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon.'


The Wood-elves are painted as basically Good Folk, with their point of view reasonably enough explained in my opinion; and I think their implication that the Dwarves unwittingly brought the Spiders upon themselves is supported by the text.

[Edited on 19/4/2011 by Elthir]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 18, 2011 09:33
But the cries of the others steadily further and fainter, and though after a while it seemed to him they changed to yells and cries for help in the far distance.

Bilbo heard cries of help, yet there was no Elvish response, and by this time the Elves had Thorin held captive so they knew that they had been interrupted by Dwarves.
Elthir
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: April 18, 2011 04:49
But the cries of the others steadily further and fainter, and though after a while it seemed to him they changed to yells and cries for help in the far distance.


Potbellyhairyfoot wrote: Bilbo heard cries of help, yet there was no Elvish response, and by this time the Elves had Thorin held captive so they knew that they had been interrupted by Dwarves.


The Elves could easily have been too far off by then, and simply having Thorin (noting they 'thought he was an enemy' in any case) doesn't mean they heard any cries of help. Thorin didn't hear the cries: 'All the noise of the Dwarves lost in the night, their cries as the spiders caught them and bound them, and all the sounds of the battle the next day, had passed over him unheard. Then the wood-elves had come to him, and bound him, and carried him away.'

Thorin had been under a spell, and before this description it's also noted...

Thorin had been caught much faster than they had.


Thorin had been caught much faster than the Dwarves, and again there's no indication his captors heard cries of help -- which seemingly only changed specifically to cries of help 'after a while'.

The Elven King had no idea what had happened to the other Dwarves, nor do the Dwarves even accuse the Elves of leaving them to the Spiders.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: October 22, 2011 01:01
I feel there is a deliberate blurring of waking and dream states in much of Tolkien and especially here. The feast, for instance is dreamed by Bombur first and communicated to the others who are all suffering from hunger, exhaustion and doubt about their fate. Bilbo, too, dreams of food.

Link this to Tolkien's early middle-english translations and we find some intriguing motifs. In Sir Orfeo, the Queen dreams her abduction by elves before it takes place in actuality, and in The Pearl a river flows between the grieving father and his little girl, grown to adulthood in paradise. If he crosses the water he will enter a magical state from which he cannot return. Thorin and co have indeed crossed water, several times, but the last being an enchanted stream, their physical and mental state is tottering.

On a personal note, I have, under extreme exhaustion and impending hypothermia believed that a snowdrift was a bed. I felt suddenly warm and believed I was in my own room, and if I could just lie down for a bit I'd recover my strength. My companions cursed, pushed and bullied me down the mountain. It was good that they were fitter than I, and had more reserves. It stood me in good stead for later when I was more experienced. Interestingly enough, another effect was seeing sparks and flares which later continued behind closed eyelids until my body had readjusted next day. Friends who have spent years at a time in Antarctica also tell me that strange fancies can easily spread to a whole group. I don't know what they did to avoid it.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: January 07, 2012 03:54
I'm still not convinced that the Elves weren't aware of the danger the Dwarves were in. They had to know what creatures lived nearby and simply didn't care if the Dwarves were caught, and killed, by the spiders.
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Wood-Elves, the Dwarves and the Spiders.
on: January 21, 2012 10:29
I see The Hobbit as a very different book to LOTR and have always had a problem with the Elves. West of the Misty Mountains they seem a little more light-hearted though still aloof. I know they aren't concerned with the other occupants of Middle Earth but I don't like to think they would leave the dwarves to their fate. Maybe they had their eye on them all the time, which is quite likely as they were in their territory, and would have lent a hand at the last. With only Bilbo's account to go on we'll never know.
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