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tarcolan
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Post Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 17, 2011 09:19
We know one Silmaril is a star now, or Venus, but where are the other two? One just got thrown in the ocean; is it still there? The third got dropped into a crack in the earth and was swallowed up by lava. Did it survive? Might they not turn up yet?
All this of course toward a Seventh Age story involving the line of Luthien which will never fail, we are told. And maybe the return of Sauron who was not killed but only diminished. I know it was said that none could foresee his return in any age of the world but so what? They couldn't foresee the Large Hadron Collider or fridge magnets either. And Old Tom must still be around somewhere. Did Tolkien explicitly preclude anything like this?
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 21, 2011 11:37
Information about the Silmarils can be found in our own Elrond's Library right here
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 24, 2011 02:51
Well, tarcolan, the piece in Elrond's Library doesn't seem to give any more information than you already have. But if you're writing fan fiction, I don't see why you can't resurrect anyone or anything you want! Just make it plausible.

I find it interesting that Tolkien's imagination would have objects of such pure and perfect beauty generate so much disharmony and grief. There's a lesson in there somewhere.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 25, 2011 11:17
Good point LB, the Silmarils weren't even useful in a power sort of way, just beautiful. Maybe symbolic too. Hmmm.
The reason for me asking these questions is that Tolkien was a stickler for consistency, and it caused him a few headaches, so I wouldn't want to just use characters and things out of context, and out of canon. Not that I have any intention of writing such a story, mainly because I'm no writer, but also I think it would take a genius to keep it from deteriorating into some half baked, two bit, Hollywood fodder, techno-fantasy disaster. Worse than not doing it at all.

No, I just like daydreaming such possibilities, and the deafening silence here leads me to suspect that there is nothing in canon which forbids the finding of the Silmarils and the appearance of someone who, albeit unknowing, is of the line of Luthien. Y'see, I'm pretty sure Tolkien was surprised and pleased that so many were interested in his work, and was happy for people to pick up the ball and run with it. He drew the line at hobbit weddings though. It's just a book after all. (Only kidding)


P.S. I'm not so bothered about Sauron, there's plenty around to take his place. (And check post twice to save putting PS in wrong place - Duh!)
[Edited on 25/5/2011 by tarcolan]

[Edited on 25/5/2011 by tarcolan]
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 25, 2011 08:43
Maybe peope just don't understand the exact point you're making/asking, Tarcolan. I for one am far from sure as to what in particular you're actually discussing. The possibility that the Dagor Dagorath is about to happen now? O_o
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 26, 2011 12:35
Tarcolan:
1. PB was not being brusque. He just wanted to get a useful link out to you quickly, despite the many other calls on his time.

2. There is nothing useless about the Silmarils. They are the only means of rekindling the light of the Two Trees, and it was Feanor's refusal to allow their use that led to his destructive oath.

3. The Silmarils ended up in Air, Fire and Water, the same three elements linked to the three elven rings. Tolkien's intent was that there should be a Last Battle at the End of Days in which Turin would return and slay the dragon Ancalagon the Black and earn a place among the Valar. Afterwards the Silmarils would be retrieved and broken to release their light. I haven't time to fish out the reference for that. Does anyone else know?
Elthir
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 26, 2011 07:45
Tolkien's intent was that there should be a Last Battle at the End of Days in which Turin would return and slay the dragon Ancalagon the Black and earn a place among the Valar. Afterwards the Silmarils would be retrieved and broken to release their light. I haven't time to fish out the reference for that. Does anyone else know?


I'm not sure we can easily know Tolkien's intent here (though perhaps you mean intent at one point in time, anyway) as the matter is vague enough, and thus was not included in The Silmarillion constructed by Christopher Tolkien and published in 1977. As far as text goes, the Second Prophecy of Mandos can be found in the mid to late 1930s Quenta Silmarillion -- published in The Lost Road And Other Writings for example, among earlier versions or other scattered references to an 'End Times' battle or scenario of some kind. That said, some points of note concerning this matter:

A) Tolkien rejected that Mandos should utter a Second Prophecy -- see the conclusion to the published Silmarillion, taken from Valaquenta*

(*this has fuelled debate on the net due to Christopher Tolkien stating that his father had definitively rejected the Second Prophecy of Mandos -- but I think Christopher Tolkien merely meant that the description itself was no longer to be considered a prophecy from Mandos, rather than a definitive rejection of 'any and all' references to an end of times scenario, whatever it might be in detail or character)

B) according to a late text, as part of a prophecy made by Andreth, Turin should return for the battle of the War of Wrath to slay Ancalagon -- as his last deed within the Circles of the World -- so this arguably casts some doubt as to Turin's role, if any, in the myth that still appeared in the Quenta Silmarillion (see D).

C) Tolkien gives a variant End of World belief from an Elvish perspective (see Morgoth's Ring)

D) in a note published in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien characterizes the Second Prophecy of Mandos as a Mannish belief or myth... or that is to say, he characterizes the description at the end of the 1930s Quenta Silmarillion as Mannish, in accord (in my opinion) with his rejection that it represented a true prophecy from Mandos himself.


In shorter: the Second Prophecy of Mandos -- as found in The Lost Road And Other Writings and concluding this version of Quenta Silmarillion (written at this time) -- was rejected as a prophecy of Mandos -- thus becoming a story at the end of Quenta Silmarillion, and one to be seen as a Mannish myth -- makes sense in light of giving Turin such a notable role -- that's if all the details were to remain (again, considering the Prophecy of Andreth for instance).

Anyway, I think some end of times scenario is part of the legendarium (or maybe more than one version), but what its details were to be is another matter.

'And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known (...)'


In any event, concerning a Silmaril

[Edited on 26/5/2011 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 26, 2011 08:41
Thanks Elthir. That should at least give Tarcolan a take-off point.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 27, 2011 12:06
The Silmarils still played a role on Middle-earth, even late in the Third Age. The Light from the Phial of Galadriel is known to be the captured light of Earendil's star, or in other words, the light of a Silmaril. This light proved useful when Frodo was attacked by Shelob.

I'm not an expert on fan-fiction, but as a Roleplay Forum Moderator I'd have no issue with a Silmaril reappearing, perhaps in a deep mine, a pearl, or in a fishing net. In my opinion, unless an item is clearly destroyed, there is no reason why it cannot reappear at a later date. The Palantiri lost in the ice Bay of Forochel with Arvedui the Last King have been rediscovered in a number of RP threads, and I see no reason why the Silmarils couldn't also be rediscovered.
Elthir
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 27, 2011 05:30
My opinion is that the fate of the Silmarilli is meant to be final. Technically, if they are never said to be destroyed... well one must bow to that technicality and admit 'possibility'... but again I think these things were purposely put beyond 'regular' recovery: the vast ocean, a chasm in the earth, a 'star'... these things are quite notable to me as being much harder than finding a needle in a rather vast haystack.

But it goes beyond mere difficulty or chance I think: in prophecy the jewels appear again (again, at least when the prophecy was still considered in its particular detail), but to my mind that even further suggests that they are beyond 'normal' recovery.

I would not use the Silmarilli as recovered in any fan fiction (then again I don't write or read any fan fiction in any case), and I think to do so is relying on possibility -- a possibility that, to my mind, arguably lessens the seeming (and purposed) special finality of their fate. Earendil's is not lost in a sense, but he will sail the skies to the End!


Not that that made much sense! but hopefully what I mean is in there somewhere!

[Edited on 27/5/2011 by Elthir]
tarcolan
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 27, 2011 11:35
You're right PBHF and I should have known that the Silmarils have power. (Sorry for misunderstanding, BTW) Sam is my favourite character as it is he who realises that they are the thread running through all the stories of Ea. (accents don't work on my machine for some reason.) And he got into Cirith Ungol, and out again, using the phial. (Sam is also the first to save Frodo's life, BTW.)

I was thinking more of power as obviously usable though, and it seems they shouldn't have that sort of corrupting influence, but they do to the Elves, even Thingol. So it is odd that they should have been the cause of so much grief, as LadyBeruthiel says. But I divest.

It is clear, I think, that even Tolkien was unsure about the fate of the Silmarils and there's no reason they couldn't appear and disappear again, to be found in those end of days again. Were they beyond any 'regular' kind of discovery? Maybe, but then why should it be regular? Who can say what will happen before the Last Battle? Especially if one of the line of Luthien is involved. As Gandalf implies, certain things are meant to happen. I truly believe that Tolkien gave us his world so we could wonder, imagine and expand it. So I'll keep on dreaming, though not in this world. It gets in the way and spoils the magic.

(BTW, Ea doesn't seem to be in the encyclopedia.)
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Elthir
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 27, 2011 05:38
It is clear, I think, that even Tolkien was unsure about the fate of the Silmarils...


I think there's another way to characterize the evidence: even if Tolkien truly abandoned a Mannish reference to the Silmarils being recovered in End Times, the Jewels still end up in rather implausible places with respect to recovery. This much seems certain enough.

... and there's no reason they couldn't appear and disappear again, to be found in those end of days again.


OK but there are countless imagined scenarios (one could invent) that Tolkien doesn't specifically negate anywhere. Not that you said otherwise, but there should be more to consider than wondering whether or not something is specifically denied.

Were they beyond any 'regular' kind of discovery? Maybe, but then why should it be regular? Who can say what will happen before the Last Battle? Especially if one of the line of Luthien is involved. As Gandalf implies, certain things are meant to happen.


But speaking of implications, doesn't the fact that the Silmarils are lost (or 'taken away') in such seemingly final ways imply something quite strongly? And it's not just the Sea or a chasm, but the very face of Middle-earth was changed with the loss of most of Beleriand!

I truly believe that Tolkien gave us his world so we could wonder, imagine and expand it. So I'll keep on dreaming, though not in this world. It gets in the way and spoils the magic.


For the record, I don't post here to try to restrict or discourage anyone from dreaming (and so on), but these forums are (in part) for the exchange of opinions in any event.

So again no, there's nothing I know of which states a recovery never happened -- but in my opinion a later recovery (and loss again) is an idea which swims against the waters of Middle-earth, not exactly with them... so to speak. If one wanted to paint Sauron as a 'good guy' I wouldn't want to say he or she can't imagine this, or 'expand' upon Middle-earth by revealing a true dragon hidden beneath the Green Dragon, or that there were many marriages between Men and Elves (if not Eldar and Edain)...

... but I don't necessarily have to agree that a given idea makes 'good expansion' (in all ways) according to my subjective views.

And it's not that I think the possibility silly or without merit (in potential), but I do think it generally undermines the impact of the fate of the Silmarils to reintroduce even one again to Middle-earth; and have it lost yet again.

Not that anyone need agree with me of course
tarcolan
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 28, 2011 10:45
Well met, Elthir. I reluctantly concur (sigh). It would diminish them to keep popping up as props, yet it seems that having been so central to the history of Middle Earth, they play no part in the world of Men. Are the 4th to 7th ages just ordinary and mundane, no magic or mystery? No stories worth telling that haven't been told in this world. I understand that this was part of his thesis, the fading of magic in the world till only children's tales remain.
So then what of the line of Luthien? Sleepers all, till the End Times? It just seems so unfair... all that promise comes to naught. Why did he mention it if this is so, whetting our appetite then denying our hunger. Ungracious moaner aren't I?
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LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: May 28, 2011 06:40
Maybe the lost Silmarils could be something like the Holy Grail--sought after, desired, almost grasped, then lost again. The quest would be endless, fed by hope and occasional visions, sustained by legends of the return of Luthien's line....The possibilities are endless.
bootsgrandma
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 22, 2011 07:54
I was just reading about the Arkenstone. Could this be the Silmaril Maedhros cast into the fires along with himself? The Lonely Mountain is an extinct volcano.

"It was like a globe with a thousand faces; it shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the Moon!" The Hobbit

Sounds like a Silmaril to me.

[Edited on 22/7/2011 by bootsgrandma]
bootsgrandma
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 22, 2011 08:08
Story suggestion - Let Gimli take the Arkenstone into the west as a gift to the Valar and for being granted permission to sail with Legolas.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 22, 2011 08:52
I'm afraid I don't buy that one. I think the elves would have known one when they saw one, and Gandalf would certainly have recognised it as he probably saw one in Valinor way back when. Apart from that I don't know whether Tolkien had thought of them when he wrote The Hobbit. Nice idea though.
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cirdaneth
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 22, 2011 11:09
I'm definitely with Tarcolan on this. The Arkenstone is a symbol of Thorin's family and their sovreignty within the Lonely Mountain. I'm guessing it to be a natural diamond of great size not unlike the one that forms the head of the sceptre of England.

I was taken to see it as a child, and perhaps Tolkien was too. I remember standing in the great stone vault at the Tower of London, the coolness, the smell of the stone walls about me and this great glittering magical thing throwing light in all directions and symbolising everything about the country I belonged to and it's ability to survive. About us the streets were ravaged and broken, but the King was still here, and we were still here and the diamond said it all for me.

THe effect of the Arkenstone will have been similar for the dwarves.
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 25, 2011 06:01
It seems that Tolkien did play with the idea of the Arkenstone being one of the Silmarils when he was writing The Hobbit, but at that time, he didn't think of TH as a part of his legendarium. From "The Arkenstone as a Silmaril" in The History of The Hobbit by John Rateliff:

Just as the sword of Turgon King of Gondolin had somehow survived the fall of his city and found its way through the ages into that troll-lair and hence Bladorthin/Gandalf's hands, it is thus more than possible that Tolkien was playing in The Hobbit with the idea of having one of Fëanor's wondrous Jewels re-appear, no doubt the one that had been thrown into a fiery chasm and lost deep within the Earth - which is, after all, exactly where the dwarves find the Arkenstone, buried at the roots of an extinct volcano. As with his borrowings regarding Tinwelint's quarrel with the dwarves in 'The Nauglafring' for the chapter about the wood-elves and their king's 'old quarrel' with the dwarves, Tolkien drew on his legendarium without committing himself: it was a one-way borrowing in which elements from the 1930 Quenta and Early Annals found their way into The Hobbit but that 'unofficial' usage did not in turn force changes in what Tolkien was still thinking of as the main line of the legendarium. By avoiding the word silmaril and instead using the ingenious and agreeable synonym Arkenstone (Eorcanstán), Tolkien got to draw on his rich homebrew mythology, which by the early 1930s had developed a remarkable depth and sophistication, without worrying what the effect of his new story would be on that mythology (and hence could blithely include such statements as 'indeed there could not be two such gems, even in so marvellous a hoard, even in all the world').
tarcolan
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 25, 2011 01:35
Not so far from the truth after all, bootsgrandma. Thanks for that Morwinyoniel. 'Precious Stone' eh? Curiouser and curiouser.
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Elthir
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Post RE: Where are the Silmarils?
on: July 26, 2011 05:29
It seems that Tolkien did play with the idea of the Arkenstone being one of the Silmarils when he was writing The Hobbit, but at that time, he didn't think of TH as a part of his legendarium.


Well, I guess it depends upon what you mean by 'play with the idea' here, but I don't think Rateliff uncovered any text that shows Tolkien even questioning whether the Arkenstone might be a Silmaril. John Rateliff even notes the sense of finality in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...

'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff


Well I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still quite close in date to the writing of The Hobbit

'Just as the sword of Turgon King of Gondolin had somehow survived... it is thus more than possible that Tolkien was playing in The Hobbit with the idea of having one of Feanor's wondrous jewels reappear,...' J. Rateliff


But 'more than possible' isn't saying much in my opinion. No doubt Tolkien changed his mind enough times, so the implication here seems to be that Tolkien might change his mind about this finality once again. OK, possible, but is there textual evidence to show that he did for his new story? Another implication appears to be that since an item like Turgon's sword survived, maybe one of the Silmarils might too. Well again, that only goes so far I think.

A further element of the evidence appears to be the word arkenstone -- but as Rateliff himself notes, this word fits for 'precious or holy jewel', and is found in Beowulf and The Christ, for examples in Old English. Tolkien's use of the term is fitting in both cases, but this 'connection' is nothing new at this point, as the Old English snippets of the Silmarillion writings were published some time ago now in The History of Middle-Earth series.

With respect to possibly new information gleaned from drafts for The Hobbit, Rateliff notes that the Arkenstone evolved out of the Gem of Girion, which was a gem given by Girion of Dale to the Dwarves (although it is not told how Girion got this gem in any case). And as for the compared descriptions (how both jewels looked, or dealt with light), even Rateliff notes than any similarities here do not prove that the Arkenstone was intended as a Silmaril. I realize Rateliff's case is intended to be a combination of things, but here we have jools that an author wished to set apart as particularly notable and beautiful, so to my mind even a measure of borrowing of description would not be unexpected.

I think we are still wanting textual evidence that Tolkien was actually playing with the notion of making this gem a Silmaril specifically, as there doesn't seem to be any confirming text or note in the draft stages of The Hobbit (which would be new to the case, so to speak).
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