Welcome Guest 

Register

Author Topic:
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post Bilbo question
on: July 03, 2011 08:20
In LOTR Gandalf tells us he never believed Bilbo's original story about finding the ring. Is this conversation written anywhere, I've looked through The Hobbit but it just says Gandalf gave Bilbo a queer look. Anyone know?
Richard_Tse
Council Member
Posts: 5
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 03, 2011 08:38
Probably in the Fellowship of the Ring. Will look though when i get the chance.
Galadeth
Council Member
Posts: 100
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 03, 2011 09:32
You can find it in chapter 2 of the FotR, when Galdalf tells Frodo about the ring:

Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his "birthday present".

Just go through a few pages and you'll find the paragraph.
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 05, 2011 08:33
That isn't the actual conversation though is it? I thought Tolkien might have written it down somewhere. I just fancied hearing Bilbo trying to lie convincingly to Gandalf. Ho hum.
Frodo~the~Second
Council Member
Posts: 208
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 09, 2011 12:36
I wondered that too and concluded that it probably isn't recorded what was said.

~Frodo (the Second)
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 11, 2011 03:47
Gandalf probably refers to how Tolkien wrote the event in the original text of The Hobbit; it was published in the first edition, but the author later changed it to the second edition which was published after the LOTR, to keep it in line with the latter. He did say so somewhere, but as I'm not at my books at the moment, I'm not able to check.

The original version is included in The Annotated Hobbit and The History of The Hobbit, if you can get those books into your hands. It can also be found online here together with the revised version for comparison.
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 11, 2011 11:26
Silly me! Of course the conversation isn't in The Hobbit. As I understand it the Ring only became important when Unwin insisted on a sequel, and Tolkien chose the Ring as the link. But if Gollum had given it to Bilbo it would have diminished its potency, so Tolkien had to change the text. His genius was to blame it on Bilbo, thus the reference in the Prologue to LOTR. Brilliant! So Gandalf can only started to have really doubt Bilbo's story when he began to suspect the true nature of the Ring. I wonder when that might have been? Hmmm.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 12, 2011 12:30
Bilbo also mentions this matter in the Council of Elrond when he says he'll tell the true tale now however else he may have told it in the past.
Elthir
Council Member
Posts: 433
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 12, 2011 02:42
I think the second edition was released in 1951, thus a few years before The Fellowship of the Ring (1954) -- but in any case, as noted already, after the new ideas concerning the One had arisen of course, and after The Lord of the Rings had been written...

... if not wholly 'completed' or published yet. Thus, from a letter, Tolkien explans that a note might go along with the second edition, including smething like...

'(...) More important is the matter of Chapter Five. There the true story of the ending of the Riddle Game, as it was eventually revealed (under pressure) by Bilbo to Gandalf, is now given according to the Red Book, in place of the version Bilbo first gave to his friends, and actually set down in his diary. This departure from truth on the part of a most honest hobbit was a portent of great significance. It does not, however, concern the present story, and those who in this edition make their first acquaintance with hobbit-lore need not trouble about it. Its explanation lies in the history of the Ring, as it is set out in the chronicles of the Red Book of Westmarch, and it must await their publication.'


JRRT, Letters
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 16, 2011 06:15
Thanks, Elthir, that was the reference I was thinking of.

So, Bilbo's own account of getting the Ring was how it was told in the original version of The Hobbit, and the real course of events was presented in the revised version.
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: July 16, 2011 08:34
So do I assume Tolkien never wrote down either the original conversation when Bilbo lies, or the later one when Gandalf puts Bilbo under pressure to tell the truth? I asked this question to try and find out when, roughly, in the time between the two stories this may have occurred. I assume the original version was told by Bilbo to his friends, including Gandalf, quite soon after the adventure. How long had it been on Gandalf's mind before he pressed Bilbo for the truth?

But the quote you provide Elthir, in itself is quite problematic. Which 'friends' did Bilbo tell? The Red Book was secret and Bilbo only told Frodo of the Ring, amongst hobbits that is. Gandalf obviously, but who else?
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Bilbo question
on: September 10, 2011 10:23
Now that really is interesting Tarcolan, and the timing is crucial. Obviously, it was after Bilbo's return to the Shire but before the Long Expected Party. The prologue to LotR suggests that Gandalf questioned Bilbo frequently about the ring and it took some time before he confessed. So there's more than one conversation.

Also in the prologue it says He used the ring many times on his quest, chiefly for the help of his friends; but he kept it secret from them as long as he could. After his return to his home he never spoke of it again to any one save Gandalf and Frodo;
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email