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tarcolan
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Post The Lesser Rings
on: September 13, 2011 11:35
Gandalf wasn't that surprised that Bilbo had a magic ring. He obviously didn't think it was one of the Great Rings as all but one of these was accounted for. Were these other rings made by the Elves, mere essays in the craft, and where were they all?
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MallornHugger
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: September 13, 2011 01:34
I think it mentioned in the Silmarillion, of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, that the three elven Rings were the major Rings given to the elves, but other, lesser rings were also made by Celebrimborn and his smith to give to others of the Eldar. Maybe Gandalf was talking about those?
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: October 21, 2011 11:14
As far as I can gather the One, the Three, the Seven and the Nine were the Rings of Power, but the lesser rings were magical trinkets, and 'apprentice pieces' made by elves who were learning the craft. In 'The Shadow of the Past' Gandalf says:

In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: October 22, 2011 10:22
They must have been quite common though, at least the ones that bestowed invisibility, don't you think? So where were they all?
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SongofNimrodel
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: October 28, 2011 04:57
I'd guess Sauron/various forces of evil got ahold of most of them when they got the Great Rings of Power. Then it wouldn't be so shocking for Bilbo to find one in the goblin caves. That would certainly be more expected than finding the One.
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itariliel
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 20, 2011 04:20
After many (40+) years of reading LotR I finally noticed last night that in Gandalf's account of his capture by Saruman (at the Council of Elrond) he makes a point of saying that Saruman is wearing a ring. I have never before considered the significance of this. Has it been discussed in the forums?
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 20, 2011 01:33
I remember bringing this up in a thread called "What did Gandalf mean?", and I think it's been discussed many times. It's generally agreed that it was not a ring of any power. It does still bother me though on two levels: why did Saruman mention it and why did Tolkien mention it?
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Nolimon
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 20, 2011 07:18
I remember seeing a thread of this some time ago.

I think it was mentioned to illustrate Saruman's imminent knowledge of the lore regarding the Rings of Power, which was his specialty, and also illustrate his desire to possess one for himself, particularly the One Ring. He tried to recreate one, a culmination of his skill and of his years of study. Perhaps it was a failure, which in turn fueled his desire to possess the One Ring even more.

Also, as he knows or believed he knows where the Elven rings were bestowed and jealous that Gandalf has one, I think he sought to surpassed them to show his superiority or to rival them to assuaged his ego. It symbolizes his pettiness and arrogance, as well as being "bound" to domination and desire for power.
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 21, 2011 12:16
I'd agree with all that, Nolimon, but it doesn't explain why Saruman made a point of showing the ring to Gandalf and even calling himself Ringmaker. He certainly wasn't looking to fool Gandalf so must have been taunting him, and Gandalf mentions it at the Council to illustrate the things you've said above. My gripe is that Tolkien doesn't make that very clear and never talks of it again, unless someone knows otherwise.

I just fancied the ring might have some power to amplify Saruman's influence as it would explain away the more glaring errors that were made by Gandalf and other members of the White Council.
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Nolimon
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 21, 2011 05:12
Tolkien probably had forgotten all about it; not the first time I'm afraid. Nothing in the earlier drafts of LotR published so far, like in the History of Middle-earth series, made any mention of it or its significance.

Even more problematic is what became of it? Did it disappear when Saruman died? Or did some hobbit picked it up?
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 22, 2011 10:48
Remember that Saruman was under a delusion that he could challenge Sauron. He was power-hungry and way way exceeding his brief in Middle Earth. He hoped to acquire the One Ring for himself, and was seeking it in the region of the Gladden Fields. As a wizard/maia he might well have created a ring with power of some kind ... the enhancement of his voice, for instance. Sauron was also a maia and perhaps Saruman felt he could match him in time.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 23, 2011 04:48
It is said that each of the Dwarf hordes of riches was accumulated due to a Ring of Power. I have trouble picturing Elves making Rings for the express purpose of accumulating wealth, so the rings clearly functioned by somehow encouraging or helping with the desires of the wearer.

Saruman's Ring was his first attempt at a Ring of Power and would likely be the equivalent to the early, lesser Rings made in Eregion as the Elves of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain learned the craft. I don't think that he directly sought advice or assistance from Sauron, but I'm sure that Sauron influenced him every time he used the Orthanc-stone. Could that influence have gone into his forging of a Ring of Power?
I never thought of this before but I wonder if Sauron was able to influence Saruman even more once he put on his ring.

[Edited on 23/11/2011 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Lesser Rings
on: November 23, 2011 02:06
I have trouble picturing Elves making Rings for the express purpose of accumulating wealth
Don't forget that they were made with the help of Sauron.
I wonder if Sauron was able to influence Saruman even more once he put on his ring.
Now that's an interesting idea, PBHF, although it assumes that it was made using the same techniques as given by Sauron, otherwise it might even lessen Sauron's influence over Saruman.

All I'm trying to do is absolve Gandalf to some degree. If there were many lesser rings around it explains why Gandalf was happy to leave it in the Shire with Bilbo. However he told Frodo that even the lesser rings are dangerous to mortals, so he was still in error leaving it so long. But if Saruman's ring could strengthen his powers of persuasion, even through others, it offers a far more convincing explanation of Gandalf's errors, especially swanning off to Orthanc when he knew the Nine were on their way. All conjecture I know, but the LOTR is all about the Ring so it would seem to be pretty important. It is to me anyway, if only to keep consistency in an already incredibly consistent story.
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