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tarcolan
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Post Tolkien and water
on: January 16, 2013 04:02
Water seems to be important to Tolkien, from the Withywindle to Galadriel's Mirror. Any thoughts on this?
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Lastiel Rusc
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: January 16, 2013 04:19
A thought of mine is that he grew up in South Africa for a while, so water could be rather valuable. But looking into it just a bit more, I don't think he would have remembered much of Africa since he was born there and left when he was around three...or so Wikipedia says.

Or it could be the thought that rain washes everything away making it clean again, somewhat similar to how snow turns the most disgusting environment into something beautiful and pristine.

But I can and probably am completely wrong, haha.
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: January 17, 2013 11:58

As A Catholic Tolkien was well aware of the special properties given to water, and its not surprising, considering that awareness, that he gave similar properties to the waters of Middle-earth.
I have to admit that considering Galadriel's Mirror, and her Phial containinng the light of Earendil's Star, along with Elrond's ability to raise the level of the Bruinen, that Tolkien's waters had maybe a bit more ability, but Tolkien started off knowing that waters could change people, as in baptism, purify people, as in the vessels found a Church entrances, and could also be used a ward against evil. Many other authors have used water, mostly Holy Water, as a ward and defence, and even as a weapon, against Evil and evil creatures.

Ulmo could manipulate the seas.
Nazgul had dificulty crossing open water.
Elrond could control the flow of a river.
Dunking (a bit like a traditional baptism ) in the Enchanted River of Mirkwood changed a person.
Frodo was told not to drink any of the evil waters flowing from Mordor.
Galadriel's Mirror and Phial had unusual properties due to the special waters they contained.
there's likely more but that's all that cames to mind right now.







tarcolan
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: January 18, 2013 03:14
I'd add Goldberry and Kheled-Zâram.

[edit] Then there's the entdraught and the flooding of Isengard.
Water rituals are universal regardless of its scarcity. Well dressing festivals still happen here in the UK. I don't think water plays such a large role in myths and legends as it does in Tolkien's work. I can't accept that this comes solely from Christian practices, but then why does it seem so important to him?
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Grizzwald
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: February 06, 2013 09:53
Water! Water to refresh, water to bathe, water to soothe or drink, water.

Perhaps there is no deeper meaning to Tolkien's references to water but that which we already know.

Water to baptise, water to change, water to cool. Water is so ever changing in itself that it may never be known what Tolkien's references to the substance was.

Water it is believed was the beginning to life itself. Must more be said?
tarcolan
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: February 09, 2013 02:58
Nimrodel! I knew there was another one. Oh, and Tom Bombadil's water.
I was just wondering if his seeming fascination with water had been mentioned in any biography, analysis or review. I haven't got any myself, maybe I should go get one from the library.
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cirdaneth
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Post Re: Tolkien and water
on: February 09, 2013 03:34
One of Tolkien's early tasks was the translation of "Pearl" an early middle-English poem in which a father, consumed with grief, falls asleep on the grave of his infant daughter, thinking only of the decay of her little body beneath him. He dreams. He reaches a river in a beautiful land but cannot find a bridge or ford. He sees a maiden on the far bank and realises she is his daughter grown in beauty and robed in white and pearls. He wants to join her but she tells him he cannot cross. They hold long conversation. Finally in desperation he attempts to wade the stream but wakes still lying on the grave. Yet his pain is gone for he knows that in her innocence his child was saved and that he may yet join her in paradise.

If we add to that the fact that Tolkien crossed the water to England and that his father's death in South Africa meant he could not return, we can see that crossing water, both spiritually and physically, was a strong and early influence. His later experiences of loss will have compounded that, I feel.
cirdaneth
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on: March 20, 2014 02:28
* bump
Gandolorin
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on: March 20, 2014 11:12
In a slightly darker mood, there is the river Styx of Greek mythology, the border river to Hades across which Charon the boatman of the underworld transferred the dead, payment being the coin (obolus) placed in the mouth of the dead.
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tarcolan
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on: March 20, 2014 05:23
I think that was always in the back of our minds Gando. It's the ultimate crossing. I think it's a lot more primordial than that. Another water crossing has just occurred to me, the ferry incident right at the beginning.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 22, 2014 06:11
The river crossing, more generally and positively, into "another" world was without question that achieved to enter Lórien. All other river crossings are fairly mundane by comparison. The ultimate crossing of water, but now no longer just a river, is of course that of Bilbo and Frodo in the Elven Ship bringing them from the Grey Havens to the True West. Books have been written about this, so enough about this from me here.

[Edited on 03/23/2014 by Gandolorin]
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cirdaneth
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on: March 23, 2014 01:20
The crossing of the Bruinen was hardly mundane. A terrifying moment. Someone, possibly Tom Shippey, has suggested that Tolkien takes his characters (and us) progressively deeper and deeper into realms of myth with each crossing representing another layer. They cross by bridge, by rope, on horseback, on foot ... and in The Hobbit, by eagle. His writing is often the point where ancient myth and Christian mysticism meet.
Wandering Noldo
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Post The calming sound of water
on: December 06, 2017 12:38
It is well known today that the sound of rain in a forest or the sound of running water is calming and may help you fall to sleep.
You can buy CD's, download such sounds, listen to it on YouTube and even get apps for your smartphone with "ambient sound".

However, this appeared to be known also in Tolkiens time. In LotR book 2, just after comming to Lothlorien Frodo says: On the further bank we can rest, and the sound of the falling water may bring us sleep and forgetfulness of grief

I do think though, that Tolkien only had the option of listening to the real thing
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: December 06, 2017 12:39
I think is especially evident with the stream of Nimrodel, as you mentioned above with Frodo's quote. The idea of falling water being like music is certainly present at least there.
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tarcolan
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on: December 06, 2017 12:53
I've moved these last two posts here as they are relevant to this discussion. Wandering Noldo has raised a point we haven't considered yet, the musical sound of water. I get the feeling there is a reference in the Silmarillion to the effect that the Music of the Ainur can still be heard in water, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll keep looking.

By the way, it was Legolas who suggested resting by the stream, not Frodo.
‘Here is Nimrodel!’ said Legolas. ‘Of this stream the Silvan Elves made many songs long ago, and still we sing them in the North, remembering the rainbow on its falls, and the golden flowers that floated in its foam. All is dark now and the Bridge of Nimrodel is broken down. I will bathe my feet, for it is said that the water is healing to the weary.’ He went forward and climbed down the deep-cloven bank and stepped into the stream.
‘Follow me!’ he cried. ‘The water is not deep. Let us wade across! On the further bank we can rest, and the sound of the falling water may bring us sleep and forgetfulness of grief.’

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GreenhillFox
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on: December 06, 2017 03:52
Here's another quote on water I don't think I saw before in this discussion; Frodo is telling how Bilbo used to put it:

"He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep, and every path was its tributary."
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
tarcolan
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on: December 06, 2017 10:12
I had forgotten that one, thanks GF.
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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: December 07, 2017 05:09
How about my personal favourite from The Silmarillion?

“It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.”
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