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~nólemë~
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on: July 30, 2014 03:10
Re. Thranduil's age- if he indeed was Círdan's contemporary, wouldn't he also have a beard?

You say the movie guides put Tauriel at 500.


Not quite. I haven't read them, I said I thought they said so. They, or the interviews.
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Gandolorin
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on: July 30, 2014 03:35
~nólemë~ said:Re. Thranduil's age- if he indeed was Círdan's contemporary, wouldn't he also have a beard?

Gut feeling: Cirdan is a very old character, dating from before JRRT had quite settled his view on Elves. I DO have a (very dim, especially as to source) memory about Elves also going through age stages, and that Cirdan was in the beard stage - but then, who else? No memories about that. Guess: Cirdan with beard was a very old concept, before the beardlessness of male Elves became canon - so the beard had to later (retroactively) be explained - wouldn't be the first time for such retroactive explanations:
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~nólemë~
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on: July 31, 2014 04:38
We won't know for sure till we learn what period those notes were from. Tolkien Gateway claims its source on Elf beards is the Vinyar Tengwar (it also mentions Mahtan as a bearded elf). I haven't read those. I myself am not buying the ancient Thranduil theory; it's not only the beard, his overall characterization just IMO doesn't scream Cuivienen (greediness etc), and unless Legolas' age was made up by others (?), the gap between reaching adulthood and having a son woudn't sit well with me either.
Ahem. I guess we should get back to Tauriel...

[Edited on 07/31/2014 by ~nólemë~]
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Cenor
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on: August 03, 2014 10:57
I don't like the romance but I do like Tauriel. She represents the Elves of Mirkwood. When she is talking about walking with the stars and her love of nature.
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Lindarielwen
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on: October 08, 2014 05:43
I guess my idea of *romance* is not the same as most. I feel it was nothing more than a flirtation...a mild one at best. Kinda like me and the guy who bags the groceries at the store.

I like Tauriel. We needed a female warrior Elf. I am glad PJ put her in the story. We should all be thankful such a creative man took on LotR in the first place. He adds things and takes some things away. So what?

Any thoughts on what will happen to Tauriel in Hobbit 3? My mind tells me it will not be good.

[Edited on 10/08/2014 by Lindarielwen]
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Gandolorin
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on: October 08, 2014 11:46
Lindarielwen said:...We should all be thankful such a creative man took on LotR in the first place...

True. What pops into my mind right now is Winston Churchill's sarcastic quip that Democracy is the worst form of government - except for every other form that has ever been tried. Same for PJ, when he was an unknown - worst director they could have chosen, except for any other director that has ever lived or still lives.

For LoTR, and most decisively FoTR.

He is no longer an unknown, and he has gone commercial mainstream (GASP! This is a typical late 1960s, early 1970s - and later? - reaction).

Now since TH was definitely not going to be filmed at the age level the book was aimed at, and it by itself (not later background material!) leaves much open, PJ had more leeway - with the non-nerds. That's probably why he also brought in things that echo the LoTR, without ever having been in the book (or even background material). Perhaps feeding tidbits to the non-nerd to give them the feeling "that seems familiar - hey, I get it!"

I'm going to take the whole TH trilogy as a fanfic loosely based on JRRT - otherwise I would be roaring like every dragon ever slain in Middle-Earth combined, to the effect "What the *blippety blippety blippety BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* were you thinking when you perpetrated this *blippety blippety blippety BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* scene, you *blippety blippety blippety BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* Kiwi?!?!?"

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~nólemë~
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on: October 08, 2014 01:21
Lindarielwen said:I like Tauriel. We needed a female warrior Elf. I am glad PJ put her in the story. We should all be thankful such a creative man took on LotR in the first place. He adds things and takes some things away. So what?


Well... I don't like Tauriel. I don't think we needed a female warrior Elf (who is this 'we' you are talking about anyway?). I am not glad PJ insterted her. No, I am not thankful, because I feel TH is, as Gando said, basically mediocre fanfic on screen. I don't like anything PJ added in TH. And to echo your question: so what? If anyone has problems that another person doesn't like what they like, it's their problem only. Noone has a right to tell me what I 'should' feel any more than I have the right to preach that each faithful Tolkien fan 'should' condemn PJ's newest creation. Live and let live.
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Lindarielwen
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on: October 08, 2014 07:44
Oh, ~noleme~ your comments gave me the best laugh I had all day. Nothing like a little lively conversation.

You don't like Tauriel. I do. So what? You are not glad PJ inserted her. I am glad. So what? You don't like anything PJ added to TH. I do. So what? You are not thankful for anything PJ did. I am. So what? You have your opinion and I have mine. And again, so what? What each of us thinks of any of the PJ movies makes no difference in either of our lives, does it?

My pointy ears and I are going to see Hobbit 3 and we will love it just as we did all the films. I would imagine when you see the movie (If you do), you will be sitting there critiquing every frame. Guess who will have the most fun?

And my question was....Any thoughts as to what will happen to Tauriel in Hobbit 3?
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~nólemë~
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on: October 09, 2014 03:04
Lindarielwen, please watch your tone. It looks like we have a misunderstanding here: I don't have any problems with your personal preferences. What I do not like is the way worded your post. You love Tauriel and have fun when watching TH? Good for you. But I must repeat: Live and let live. You don't see those who disliked PJ'd additions telling PJ's fans that they should NOT be thankful. Yet look at your own comment: "We should all be thankful [...]". You being thankful is one thing, you telling the others what they should or should not feel, is another. You are allowed to fangirl Tauriel all you want in these forums, but please respect other people's opinions, and most importantly - leave personal invectives like "you will be sitting there critiquing every frame" out of this. Again - you do not see the other camp sneering that Tauriel fans will be "sitting there drooling".
As for your question - I think she'll die.
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Lindarielwen
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on: October 09, 2014 05:29
Hey, at least we agree on one thing...I, as well, think she will die. What do you think will be the manner of her death? Horribly gruesome? Will she die trying to save Kili?



[Edited on 10/10/2014 by Lindarielwen]
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Gandolorin
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on: October 09, 2014 10:51
I've been scratching my head about how Tauriel could survive, and the original CoE could still be so silent about her. About the only thing vaguely plausible to me would be for Tauriel to rise in the military hierarchy of Thranduil's realm to be third in command after Thranduil and Legolas, or even a co second in command with Legolas. So Thranduil sends Legolas to the CoE, keeping Tauriel in his realm so one of his lieutenants is still around. Those knowing her (Legolas, Gloin, Bilbo, perhaps Gimli and Elrond) would have had occasion to talk about her while Frodo recovered in Rivendell, so at the CoE, as an absentee from any possible future action to be taken in FoTR / LoTR, there is no more need to talk about her (Dain Ironfoot and Brand son of Bain son of Bard I The Bowman certainly also had lieutenants, and none of them were named).
Enough speculation.
TH film three is about two months away (DoS EE less than one month), so just take a deep breath, say OM (or whatever) and be patient. Image

[Edited on 10/09/2014 by Gandolorin]
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Lindarielwen
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on: October 10, 2014 06:36
Gando, you certainly have been wearing your Thinking Cap, and your theory is plausible but I still think Tauriel will get killed off. Maybe she will die in Kili's arms as they both take their last breaths. Or how about more like real life? Legolas returns and finds them together and kills them both in a jealous rage. Here, in Florida, that happens a lot. Who knows what PJ will come up with? He left out the Scouring of the Shire so it is anyone's guess how Hobbit 3 will end. Death! Death to the non-canon Tauriel!
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findemaxam48
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on: October 11, 2014 12:17
I have pictured Tauriel standing near where Bilbo was in the Battle of the Five Armies. Perhaps they will take a creative liberty and have Tauriel die in Bilbo's defense. Obviously, you can see what I think will happen to her.

I am in 99% agreement with Lindarielwen. The only thing I do not like about Tauriel is how quickly she healed Kili. But, you know, you only have so much screen time for one of the most highly anticipated films of the year, so you can only do so much.

I saw a quote from Evangeline Lilly that said: "You technically meet only one Elf in the book, and he is a King, and he is male. So it was either be a female Elf in the movie, or be no-one at all."
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~nólemë~
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on: October 12, 2014 11:52
Lindarielwen said:What do you think will be the manner of her death? Horribly gruesome? Will she die trying to save Kili?


I don't think it will be gruesome. My bet is on impressive yet keeping her pretty until her last breath, which doesn't go well with gore. A slow-mo arrow, more like. Though I'm not completely writing off the version where Tauriel rides off with the remnant of the Mirkwood army into the sunset, turning around to look sorrowfully at the Mountain just before it disappears out of sight.
Hard to say about the other question... but I guess so. Perhaps she will stand by Thranduil, struggle to get to the Dwarves when she sees them waver, only to find certain people dying/dead when she gets there. Then it's her turn.
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Lindarielwen
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on: October 13, 2014 08:28
Oh, if she lives and goes back to Mirkwood, that would be interesting. She lives! She lives! Then Jackson can kill her off in the extended.

It would be just like Jackson to have her live and go back to Mirkwood and never mention her again, leaving us to our imagination as to what happened to her.

I seem to recall reading somewhere, long before Hobbit 2 was released, that Thranduil took a liking to her. Oh, that would be a hoot. He marries her and she would be Legolas' step mommy.

There is a tiny part of me a very tiny part that will be glad when all this is over.
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findemaxam48
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on: October 13, 2014 11:50
Well at least an open ended Tauriel ending would fuel many fanfics, good or bad. Yes, Thranduil did take a liking to Tauriel, but his court raised her as a daughter.
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Maltaquesse Greenleaf
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on: November 16, 2014 05:50
Lindarielwen said:

Any thoughts on what will happen to Tauriel in Hobbit 3? My mind tells me it will not be good.

[Edited on 10/08/2014 by Lindarielwen]


The newest trailer seems to hint a little clash between Thranduil and Tauriel. (Over what, I don't know.) I have met someone who thinks Thranduil will kill her, but I don't agree. That would jut be too terrible. It seems way beyond Thranduil's character. The trailer also shows a tiny clip of Bolg throwing her into a wall, so I believe he will probably kill her in hand-to-hand combat. I don't think it will be gory, but it will be very slow-motion and really sad.
Lindarielwen
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on: December 29, 2014 06:32
SPOILER ALERT....

Those of us who have seen H3, now know what happened to Tauriel...or do we? It seems Peter Jackson left it open. Some say she died of grief over the death of Kili. Others say she just went back to Mirkwood with Thranduil. In any event, we did not see her die the gruesome death that most of us expected...unless something happens to her in the EE.
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Feylinn
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on: December 31, 2014 11:45
Having seen all three films (went to see BotFA last weekend), I feel kinda ambivalently "meh" about her...

Having her in the film was interesting, but I personally don't feel she added anything to the film in a significant way.

My primary issue with Tauriel has to do with an article I read around the time DoS came out, in which Phillipa Boyens was interviewed; in defense of why they inserted a non-cannon character, Phillipa flat-out said "we needed a strong female character." That's pretty much the crux of the issue for me, because it was something THEY needed, not the fans, to satisfy some feminist urge or whatever. It was disappointing to hear they were inserting a character of their own creation and imposing her into the storyline, especially since they had deliberately refrained from doing that while making LotR.
MeliaStormcrow
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on: January 01, 2015 12:46
She was alright, I guess. Didn't care for the love triangle at all, and at times she seemed too much like somebody out of fanfiction.
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liquidblue
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on: January 02, 2015 10:05
like i said on tumblr, people complain about tauriel, but if there hadn't been a "strong female character" (getting very sick of that term) people would have complained that all three movies were just guys (except for galadriel's cameos).

i didn't mind tauriel. i also never bought that legolas was in love with her. it just didn't come across that way to me. he was LOYAL to her, sure, but i never saw it as him being in love with her.

my own headcanon about tauriel is that she is actually thranduil's illegitimate daughter, which is why he's so paranoid about her being with legolas.
kerno_baggins
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on: January 02, 2015 10:26
Well at least she made Kili's death more dramatic...
Edhelharn
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on: March 03, 2015 06:13
In the second movie, I was more "Yay, cool butt-kicking female elf warrior!" In the third movie, though, the relationship between her and Kili was more tiresome to me. I felt like it was just there for the benefit of modern audiences who only care about that kind of thing. Though I agree with kemo_baggins, because if she hadn't been there I probably wouldn't have really cared as much that Kili had died. I mean, I would have cared, just probably not as much. And she unfortunately seems a bit like a Mary Sue - beautiful Elven maiden who's great at fighting, head of guard, loved by the Elvenprince...

Still, Evangeline Lilly is a great actress. I may not like her character much, but I think she acted the role as best she could, given the not-very-intensive character development done on Tauriel.
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Estelanor Of The Shire
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on: March 15, 2015 07:01
Before I saw the movies, I did not have a strong opinion about Tauriel. First I heard that she was a girlfriend/ love interest for Legolas, and I thought that was lame. Then my sister told me that actually, Tauriel was friends with one of the dwarves. I assumed it would be Thorin, and I thought that was tragic because he would die. I had already read the book, but I didn't object to the idea of a PJ invented character at all.
Then I watched the movies. Tauriel is amazing. She is one of my favorite elves, AND one of my favorite female movie characters of all time. I wasn't won over by her beautiful outfit or her incredible archery or her stunning red hair ( okay, maybe I was a little bit ) , but what really made me a fan was her character. I love her commitment to what she believes is right, even if she may be a little wrong sometimes, but that just makes her more likable and believeable. Tauriel is not afraid of standing up to power or risking her position, as she did when she went after the dwarves in DoS, and again when she stops Thranduil from leaving the ruins of Dale.
As for the romance, I'm not a romance fan, BUT that doesn't make me dislike Tauriel or Kili at all. They are both great characters. I can understand why Kili likes Tauriel; amazing elf with incredible spider killing abilities; and as for Tauriel she starts out just feeling sympathetic for Kili and being interested in a dwarf who is clearly not what Thranduil always said dwarves were. (I picture Tauriel as a little kid looking at a book with adopted dad, Thranduil. "What's that?" Tauriel points at a picture. "That's a Dwarf, Tauriel, flip the page." "But what's a dwarf?" "Flip the page, Tauriel! Dwarves are nasty creatures!" The worst thing about their relationship was the tragic ending. at least Tauriel survived, but Thorin, Fili and Kili getting killed left me miserable for most of Winter Break.
Bottom line: I am a Tauriel fan and proud of it!! She is the sort of elf I would want as a friend, and if she was my friend, I would consider myself the luckiest hobbit in the world.
Plus her bow is amazing.
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PSK
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on: March 18, 2015 03:50
Not fair, all the interesting debate happened before the movie...
Scrolling through the comments, I was very interested in the whole Thranduil's age thing. I don't think that it is implausible for him to be very old. Although it doesn't seem likely that he was one of the first elves at Cuivienen, I can imagine him being older than Elrond. Although he seems a bit juvenile in some aspects, I think that he seems to have a beginning of time glow about him, and I think the likes of Elrond and the other "older" elves, only seem older because they have been so involved in the events of middle earth.

Also, it was all going off October 2014... but I have to say I agree with Nol, please Lindarielwen, "we" need a female elf warrior? I think not, I prefer the elegant Galadriel and Arwen, who are powerful, we know that, but they do not feel the need to show it every few seconds.

As to the topic at hand... I hate Tauriel. I'm sorry but what is she doing there? Please tell me what she brings to the movie, apart from a "romantic" aspect (for goodness sake), or "a female warrior" (for goodness sake), or "makes Kili's death better" (for goodness sake). As I think I have already expressed in another thread, Kili's death was about as emotional as seeing a rat getting stepped on... Kili was highlighted WAY to much...

I DON'T CARE HOW NICE HER BOW LOOKS. IF IT'S REALLY THAT GOOD, THEN GIVE IT TO A PROPER CHARACTER!!!!!!

[Edited on 03/18/2015 by PSK]
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findemaxam48
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on: March 18, 2015 04:57
I thin that what she brings to the movie is a sense of right/wrong and give/take. She disobeys herKing, which is obviously "wrong," and goes off to do what she thinks is "right." Twice, if I can beleive what I was told about BotFA.

Everybody's sense of right and wrong is different, though. I guess it really depends on how she is interpreted...different to each person.
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Cenor
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on: March 18, 2015 06:50
Hear hear PSK!

I think Tauriel convinced herself that she was doing "right" ("Are we not part of this world?" ) but for the wrong reason, which is Kili. Personally, I think she is a Arwen/Eowyn Mary Sue, a PJ character fail!

Your theory on Thranduil is interesting PSK, I do believe that he is older than Elrond yet since he is a wood elf he does not seem older.

[Edited on 03/19/2015 by Cenor]
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Estelanor Of The Shire
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on: March 18, 2015 08:33
With all due respect Cenor, and PSK, I must disagree: I love Tauriel. And I cried when Kili died; I still feel like crying when I listen to "Ravenhill"

[Edited on 03/18/2015 by Estelanor Of The Shire]
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 18, 2015 11:52
Estelanor, I thought you expressed yourself beautifully with your first post. My feelings are much the same. Maybe you would like to visit the Tauriel Fan Club thread in casting.

I am very empathetic, so Kili's death and Tauriel's suffering were very painful for me.

Cenor:
I think Tauriel convinced herself that she was doing "right" ("Are we not part of this world?" but for the wrong reason, which is Kili.



I disagree that it was all for Kili. I think this bugs some people because they think that one day she was going about her business, and the next day she meets Kili and turns into some sort of activist. I believe that the dwarves' plight and her new found sympathy for Kili were the last straw for her, and that for years her conscience has been becoming more and more ill at ease with the Elvenking's policies. Before she befriended Kili, she was upset that Thranduil will not allow her to seek the source of the spiders because it is outside the borders, and also because he does not care if others suffer from the spiders. When talking to Kili she says, "I have walked there sometimes. Beyond the forest" showing that she is drawn to the outside world. She became interested when Kili began talking about his travels. When Legolas told her to go back, the way he assures her that Thranduil would forgive her made me think maybe he has done so before, for lesser transgressions. But Legolas knows this time she is stepping over the line, and he wants to make sure she understands. In the liner notes to DOS special edition soundtrack, it says of her theme: "Tauriel also yearns to understand more of the outside world, for there is also softness and kindness outside the seclusion of Mirkwood." Her words about being shut away from the light are mirrored in The Desolation of Smaug Visual Companion by Jude Fisher, pg.63. "She also has a yearning for a world in which Elves do not close themselves away in dark caves and fortresses and shut their gates against the rest of the world. Instead, Tauriel yearns to go out into the wilds, to combat the evil that is encroaching upon their realm." I certainly know how that feels.
I am young and idealistic, and I see her as a young, passionate, idealist. She makes a good foil for Thranduil, but they are also alike in some ways, which fascinates me.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Lord_Sauron
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on: March 18, 2015 07:00
I think that Thranduil was born in Doriath just before its fall while Elrond was born in the Havens of Sirion.
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 19, 2015 05:55

Lord Sauron, is this an instinct, or do you have a source? I can believe that Thranduil was born in the First Age, but Second Age seems possible too.

[
quote]Gandolorin said:An interesting entry in Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle-Earth" for Thranduil: born First Age!!! He could be older than Elrond (far older, if you do not limit FA to the years of the Sun. He might have been among those Elves who woke up by the shores of Cuiviénen, so then we are talking Cirdan's age!!!)
Lives in Lindon beginning of Second Age, but before 1000 SA establishes a kingdom in Greenwood the Great.


He had a father, named Oropher, so he was not from Cuivenien. You can read about him in Unfinished Tales if you like.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Lord_Sauron
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on: March 19, 2015 07:30
I got that information from the website lotr.wikia.com whether this information is correct or not I have no idea

I don't think Tolkien ever gave Thranduil a birthdate I can't find one. So I cant claim that my statement is true

It is my opinion though that he is older than Elrond.
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 20, 2015 01:09
Thanks, Lord Suron, that is quite interesting. I forgot to say in my last post that I wonder if Robert Foster was combining Thranduil and Oropher. Christopher Tolkien believes this sometimes happens in compressed accounts. I don't know Foster's work, but in UT, it says Oropher established the kingdom of Greenwood. It says nothing about whether his son was with him at the time. From the appendix B of ROTK, we get "many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. "(p.452)
From the wording, I am unsure if JRRT meant that Thranduil was one of the ones that went east, or just that he was Sindar, of the people that went east. I find little mysteries like this very interesting. I can think of several equally plausible histories for him, and one was that he was young during the fall of Doriath. Think of the impression the loss of its glory and the slaughter by the dwarves would have on him.

I am unable to find anything on Legolas's age. It is my feeling, though I could be wrong, that he was born in the Third Age. Tauriel is just under 600. (from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Visual Companion by Jude Fisher, p.63)
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
PSK
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on: March 21, 2015 02:15
How long were the elves at Cuivienen before Orome found them? Enough time for elves to have children? If so then it is possible Thranduil was still born at Cuivienen.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 23, 2015 05:27
Unless you find some clear dates from Tolkien, I think you'll just have to follow your instincts on this. I would choose to believe Thranduil was from late First Age just because I like to picture him being young for certain events. Maybe his mother was killed by dwarves. When he fought as part of the Last Alliance, he could have been in the same life stage Legolas was when he joined the Fellowship, but his experiences had a profoundly different effect. Maybe you will think of another story you like better.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
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