Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Movies Discussion » Discuss the Movies » Tauriel
1234
Author Topic:
NenyaGold
Legend of Lothlórien & Head Chocolate Thingywidget of Yavanna
Posts: 14318
Send Message
Post
on: March 23, 2015 09:23
Here is what I've found about Thranduil and Elrond's ages:

Regarding Thranduil's age:

This is from wikia:

"Thranduil was the only son of Oropher, the King of the Woodland Realm. He was born sometime during the late First Age in Doriath before its fall. At the beginning of the Second Age, the Sindar travelled east and Oropher eventually founded Greenwood the Great."

This is from Wikipedia:

"Although the date and place of his birth are unrecorded, he may have been born in Beleriand, during the First Age of Middle-earth.[1]"

"[1]^ In Appendix B of "The Lord of the Rings" Tolkien states that Thranduil was one of the Sindar who migrated eastward early in the Second Age and established kingdoms among the Silvan Elves, implying he had a Beleriand origin and was alive during the First Age. However, in later writings, featured in "Unfinished Tales," Thranduil's father Oropher was made founder of the realm and reigned for thousands of years before his son, putting the time and place of Thranduil's birth into question."


Regarding Elrond's age:

This is from wikia:

"He was born in the refuge of the Havens of Sirion in Beleriand late in the First Age, soon before its sack by the Sons of Fëanor."

This is from Wikipedia:

"His name was explained by Tolkien in a letter from 1958 to Rhona Beare[1] as "Elf of the Cave", as he was found as an infant abandoned in a cave. Later notes, reflected in The Silmarillion[2] and The War of the Jewels,[3] interpret the name instead as "Star-dome" or "Vault of Stars" (a vault in the sense of the celestial dome).

Elrond was the son of Eärendil and Elwing, and a great-grandson of Lúthien, born in Beleriand in the First Age, making him well over 6,000 years old by the time of the events described in The Lord of the Rings."

This is from Council of Elrond:

"A Peredhil, one of the Half-elven born cFA532, son of Eärendil and Elwing, twin brother of Elros."


It seems that they are "about" the same age.

"He had a ring, a golden ring, a precious ring." ~ from The Hobbit
Edhelharn
Council Member
Posts: 981
Send Message
Post
on: May 24, 2015 04:27
I now have more reason to suspect Tauriel of being a Mary Sue.

I took the Mary-Sue test for her. 50+ is regarded as "almost certainly a Mary Sue." Tauriel scored a 74.

Reasons why she is a Mary-Sue: She is very pretty, has unusual hair color (red), she is, as far as we can tell, the only female warrior in the woodland realm, and captain of the guard at that, has a completely different wardrobe than the rest of the guard (as in, not even close, not just a different version of the uniform), a very skilled fighter, orphaned at a young age, raised by a king, has the prince in love with her, falls in love with and is loved by a member of a different species, falls in love after knowing him for less than a month, is given a special token of their love (rune stone), can heal mortal wounds, rebels against her ruler/superior, and sacrifices everything for her "true love". There might be more, I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
Image Image Love is the strongest force the world possesses - Mahatma Gandhi
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 24, 2015 04:52
Hm. I never realized all of that. And all if the information is accurate, at least to my knowledge.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Elfeawen Lomiondil
Council Member
Posts: 349
Send Message
Post
on: May 24, 2015 05:16
I am not so sure.

To me the "Mary Sue" ( a word that induces nausea) designation seems thoroughly meaningless and these litmus tests appear arbitrary. I don't want to sound as if I am taking it out on you, Edhelharn, but I won't try to hide it that I'm tired of female characters being dismissed in this way. The only thing I care about is whether I like a character or not. My sister said I could quote her: "If Tauriel is a Mary Sue, then I want to be one too!"

I don't understand why being unusual, talented, or not average is a problem. Elves are supposed to be beautiful, and every member of the Fellowship is unusual in some way.

Even if all the things you said were true, they do not detract from her character or the plot in my eyes, in fact the opposite is true. Tauriel's first outfilt (spider killing scene) is the same as what the other guards are wearing, but I wouldn't care if her garments were unique. Her 2nd outfit is clearly a longer skirted version of Legolas's LOTR tunic. Even if it wasn't, her clothing blends with the ME aesthetic and appears practical, humble, yet aesthetically pleasing, suitable for her character. I couldn't tell for sure, but I thought their were other female guards. I know other people thought so. In Tolkienverse, female warriors or females who fight at need are not that uncommon, from Eowyn to Beren's mother, or Galadriel to Idril. No one in the story seems to think her position is unusual anyway. As for falling in love in under a month, is that worse than doing so in a month and 2 days for instance? I personally have difficulty believing in love at first sight, ( which may have been the case for Kili but not Tauriel) but my own parents say it happened to them.

Maybe "Mary Sue" meant something once, but just about any character could be crammed into it nowadays.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 26, 2015 08:44
I just don't understand. On paper, someone like Tauriel would be dismissed. Denied. Not flawed enough to be palatable to readers. Why is it not the same for the screen? What is the double standard?
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Elfeawen Lomiondil
Council Member
Posts: 349
Send Message
Post
on: May 26, 2015 01:27
Well, it would depend on the quality of the writing. For me, the visual and written forms of storytelling convey character in different ways. For example, I didn't particularly care for Galadriel when I first read the books. I thought her perfectness was annoying. When I saw her in the movies, I knew exactly how Gimli felt. I thought, "This is what Tolkien was seeing!"

Not flawed enough? I guess its a matter of perspective. Legolas is super talented and very beautiful, erhm handsome, and he is super popular. One of the things I liked about Tauriel is that she has flaws. It makes her more "human" or relateable.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 27, 2015 04:36
findemaxam48 said:I just don't understand. On paper, someone like Tauriel would be dismissed. Denied. Not flawed enough to be palatable to readers. Why is it not the same for the screen? What is the double standard?

OK, I'm not the world's expert on Mary Sues (probably not even the expert among the 16 parties living at my present address).
B U T.
If my memory serves (doubtful assumption) almost everyone falls in love with a Mary Sue. Uh-huh. Kili is one of 13 Dwarves. Legolas is one of ? Elves in Thranduil's realm. Bilbo.
A Mary Sue is invincible. Tell that to Bolg.

@Maxie, we do not have the paper Tauriel. Would never have had her in anything JRRT wrote. She is PJ fanfic (as is the entire trilogy of TH, in my opinion). We have had much worse fantasy stuff than this PJ fanfic trilogy.
Image
Elfeawen Lomiondil
Council Member
Posts: 349
Send Message
Post
on: May 27, 2015 04:49
I appreciate your perspective, and its great that you found a way to enjoy the Hobbit movies that works for you.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Mironiel_EA
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: November 15, 2015 08:51
Honestly, Tauriel was not a Mary Sue character. If she was, Bolg wouldn't have been able to beat her up. And she wasn't 'in love' with Kili. She had never left Mirkwood and she's probably never seen a dwarf before, and a very handsome one at that, and so she's curious. She knows there's something going wrong out in the wide world, and she wants to help, and she urges her king to help. But of course, Thranduil says no and shut her down. But she finds a 'kindred spirit' in Kili because they share the same ideals, and they both want to fight and not hide behind doors. When she talks about the stars to Kili, it's because that's something she is interested in and likes(probably because Mirkwood is so dark and horrible and stars are bright and beautiful), and to her joy, he also has an 'interest' in stars and the moon and what not, and tells her about the fire moon he once saw(keep in mind she's probably never seen one, because she's never left Mirkwood) Since she's so young(only 600 years old!) it made sense for her to talk about something like that. It was an 'almost love story' and had Kili not died, I'm sure in time they would have really fallen in love. As for her costume and hair, why shouldn't she have red hair? Is there a logical reason why she shouldn't have red hair? No. PJ needed to make her distinct from Arwen and Galadriel. Her first costume was pretty much the same as all the other elves' costumes, and her 'traveling' outfit is a version of the outfits that the 'scout' elves wear. They are also very simple costumes, suited to her lot in life. As for her not having enough flaws, I'd say she has plenty of flaws. She's rude to Legolas(when he stays behind in exile with her) she disobeys the king(a pretty serious offense, no matter her motives) and, being young, she is also sometimes immature! I, for one, as a girl and a huge fan of the book, feel like she was a good addition to the films, because there are no kickass female characters in the Hobbit(Galadriel doesn't really count because she was in DoS for like one short shot and in BoFTA she had one scene)and I would not have enjoyed the movies as much as I did if she hadn't been in there.
1234
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email