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Cillendor
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Post The White Council
on: May 23, 2013 07:27
So I just watched an interview with Sir Christopher Lee regarding the release of his second Charlemagne album this year. In it, he said that he'd just finished filming for two "episodes" of The Hobbit. I suspected we'd see him again, but what do you think this means?

Will the White Council just meet up again after Gandalf and Radagast explore the tombs of the Nazgûl, or will Saruman himself be involved in the destruction of Dol Guldur? It hasn't been explicitly stated yet to my knowledge that we'll actually see Dol Guldur fall, but it would explain why there is no mention of it in The Lord of the Rings, even though in the books it survives to the end of the War of the Ring.

Obviously in Tolkien's version, Saruman is ousted by then and (I think) it is the Galadhrim and Thranduil's people who attack Dol Guldur in the end, but in this likely revised timeline, perhaps the White Council will be involved as well.
Lord_Sauron
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on: May 23, 2013 10:30
If I remember correctly in the Unfinished Tales Saruman was against the White Council from taking any action against the Necromancer however he was eventually persuaded by Gandalf in the end. The White Council went to Dol Guldur to confront Sauron but he knew that they were coming and left for Barad-Dur where he would be safe.

I would like to see Saruman searching for the Ring and using his Palantir to spy on Sauron, also maybe a confrontation between them.

I don't know exactly when Saruman became under the command of Sauron it must have been after the events of the Hobbit during the 60 years where Bilbo had the ring.

Seeing that Peter added the Nazgul tombs into the story (None of the Nazgul were ever captured) it is possible that Saruman may go and have a look we will have to wait and see.
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on: May 24, 2013 01:50
PJ's version is actually correct on the White Council topic, just as Lord_Sauron says. It was, per Gandalf's words, chiefly Saruman who drove the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, though there seems to have been a battle as well. Celeborn's and Galadriel's attack on Dol Guldur, complete with the final destruction of the fortress, happened after the Ring war.
I am looking forward to seeing some Saruman action in Dol Guldur. Hopefully, they won't forget Gandalf is a formidable wizard in his own right, either. I've heard a rumour concerning his involvement in the battle that I didn't particularly care for.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Lord_Sauron
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on: May 30, 2013 03:44
I copied this paragraph which I found online, it is from Fellowship of the Ring. Gandalf talks about the events of the White Council.

"Some, too, will remember also that Saruman dissuaded us from open deeds against him, and forlong we watched him only. Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council putforth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was. `But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself. Then for the last time the Council met"
PSK
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on: June 03, 2013 03:47
Yeh I think that Saruman eventually was persuaded by Gandalf.
I remember reading somewhere that Gandalf and Saruman were at first equal but Gandlaf didnt show what he could do until later. I dont remember any refernce to this in LotR, is it true?
Also I hope that the rest of the film doesnt just concentrate on the journey of the dwarves and bilbo but also shows other events happening at the same time ag the White Council and Dol Guldur
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Cillendor
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on: June 04, 2013 09:52
They had completely different methods of working. Saruman sought out friendships with those in power, while Gandalf had compassion and cared for the weak. They were originally both good, but Saruman's attempt to fight power with power turned into a lust for power that destroyed him.

I think we'll see the destruction of Dol Guldur in the third movie. Reason being, it allows Lothlórien to send an army to help the Rohirrim, which wasn't a problem before because Jackson probably never planned on mentioning Dol Guldur at all as it would be too complicated and confuse viewers. Now that he's showing it in The Hobbit, it'll be necessary to explain why it isn't there in his version of the War of the Ring.

Lord_Sauron, you're right! It would be awesome to see them communicating. If memory serves me well, then Sauron's palantír was at Barad-dur, so perhaps we could see that scene AFTER Dol Guldur is destroyed and Sauron is removed. It could show him take up residence in Barad-dur again and talking to Saruman through the stone.
Lord_Sauron
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on: June 06, 2013 01:13
I wonder if Peter Jackson will portray Sauron in a body of some sort in the White Council battle and during the battle he could lose it, which could link in with Saruman's statement in The Fellowship of the Ring "He can not yet take physical form"
PSK
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on: June 06, 2013 11:37
hmmm... interesting
probably just be black same as lotr prolog (how do you spell prolog?)
maybe he will be left out as I dont think he would have actually put himself in harms way having not aquired his full strength yet
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Cillendor
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on: June 10, 2013 03:07
It's "prologue", lol. Good try though.

Well Lord_Sauron, there is that brief clip in Return of the King where Sauron is shown in full armor holding a Palantír, and besides that, a flaming eye is a physical form. I don't place a lot of weight in Saruman's statement because of that. Whether he said that deceptively or erroneously may never be known, but at any rate, he has one.

We already saw Sauron in An Unexpected Journey, though. (Remember when Radagast saw the Necromancer in Dol Guldur?) I expect that to make the exorcism scene more interesting, they'll give him some sort of physical form.
tarcolan
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on: June 10, 2013 06:36
I think copyright restrictions will ensure that the events in the films will steer well clear of the real story, so I won't get my hopes up.

I can't really accept that the meeting we see in the film is the White Council. There are only four people there and three of them disagree with Saruman. The real White Council was persuaded by Saruman to accept his take on things and let sleeping dogs lie, so overruling those three. I don't think Saruman was persuaded by Gandalf later, the next vote simply went against him, much to his annoyance. Quite democratic really. As the film story is so far from real events it's hardly worth trying to predict what will happen next.

We could well see Saruman using the palantir as it's mentioned in LOTR. It's notable that there was no mention of the Ring in the meeting, and that was the main reason that Saruman didn't want to stir things up too much while he continued to search for it, or allow Sauron to. Not within the copyright.
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on: June 10, 2013 11:58
I am curious about the forms of the Necromancer and the nazgul in the upcoming movies. For me, less is more, so barely visible wraiths wielding blades that almost look like they're moving of their own accord, and then a shadowy Necromancer with flaming eyes (should be enough of a hint), would make me happier than the whole armed-to-the-teeth gang.

I'm not sure voting against Saruman was so easy in the White Council, Tarcolan. I gather that the Council are people who deeply worship the Valar who are known to honor the wishes of their head, however they may disagree with them. There is a quote in the Silm. concerning Melkor and not rebelling against the head of the Valarin council, Manwe, I can't recall it word for word; but I imagine the same principles were upheld in the White Council. Furthermore, I'd love to see Saruman put two and two together concerning the Necromancer searching for the Ring, and deciding to stop him without needing much wheedling from the others.
I agree, though, that the White Council looks much like a class during a flu epidemic: so many are absent. They could have just been sitting in the background, all those less important people, for just the fans to recognize (Glorfindel, Celeborn... even Radagast). I'd have liked that.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
tarcolan
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on: June 10, 2013 04:56
Yeah, I've got a problem with the White Council. Although Tolkien suggested that a benevolent dictatorship was the ideal form of government Saruman's behaviour seems to disprove this. Is there any description anywhere about their constitution, modus operandi? Are they just advisers? I know it says in UT that Saruman overruled Gandalf but I can't accept that a council made up predominantly of elves would ignore the opinions of Elrond and Galadriel. She at least sided with Gandalf and was arguably the highest authority of elvendom. Perhaps Saruman's persuasive powers were at work. All of which is pretty irrelevant in this thread, but intriguing nonetheless.
Cillendor
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on: July 30, 2013 04:49
The Istari weren't required to work together. Joining up for the White Council was completely voluntary. But Gandalf was the wisest and most humble, so he willingly surrendered to Saruman's leadership, even when he disagreed. Elrond does seem to be given the shaft in that scene, but he's not exactly arguing a new point, and it's hard to have a quick conversation that really only needs two players when you have four on screen.

My biggest gripe with the scene was how Galadriel kept "thinking" over Saruman. She was the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth, but Saruman was the chosen head of the Council. Gandalf had no reason not to trust him at that point, so Galadriel's "thinkspeak" was really pointless. It was cool in FOTR, but it was just gimmicky here. I hope they'll have a different version of the scene in the EE that doesn't constantly interrupt Saruman and have Galadriel thinkspeaking so much. I sincerely doubt that she could read minds anyway, so unless Gandalf was trying to share his thoughts with her (I doubt), how did she know so much that he had secret?
tarcolan
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on: July 31, 2013 05:57
I agree Cillendor, about the silly telepathy scene. I did not even like it in 'The Two Towers' but at least I could appreciate the filmic necessity, being preferable to showing an elf handing a letter to Elrond. In fact I imagine that it represents such a correspondence when I watch it. No, Galadriel never had such exact powers in the book, being more like an enhanced version of the human ability to divine what another is feeling or thinking. In 'The Hobbit' it is just Hollywood science fiction.

I think Gandalf was, if not suspicious, then not in accord with Saruman at this time. There was a growing enmity between them and Galadriel had preferred Gandalf as head of the Council. So the dynamics, though exaggerated, were on the right lines in the film. To be honest I think Tolkien himself had difficulty explaining why Saruman was able to sway the Council to his will. If the Elves present simply bowed to that higher authority, as you suggest, then what was the point of having a Council?
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