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tarcolan
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Post Aragorn and the palantír
on: August 16, 2013 06:04
When Aragorn is describing his encounter with Sauron through the palantír he says
...he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill.
- The Passing of the Grey Company
What did he mean>
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starofdunedain
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on: August 17, 2013 08:47
I think he meant that Sauron saw him in a sort of disguise. The palantir is a way of communicating mind to mind I think. So perhaps Aragorn was able to project what image he wanted Sauron to see instead of letting him see what he really looked like.
cirdaneth
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on: August 18, 2013 01:08
I think Aragorn presented himself to Sauron in full splendour as the King of Gondor which will have come as a heck of a shock and led him to believe that Aragorn had the ring.
tarcolan
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on: August 18, 2013 09:47
I tend to agree with cirdaneth but then in The Last Debate (5.9) Gandalf says that the Stones of Seeing do not lie and not even Sauron can make them do so. Perhaps Aragorn as the rightful owner can do this.

Gandalf also says the Stones can see into the remote distance in space and time. Obviously not for Sauron though. Ho hum. This is what happens if you keep reading the books over and over, more questions.
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findemaxam48
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on: August 19, 2013 06:20
I agree with cirdaneth.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
tarcolan
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on: August 21, 2013 02:24
Thanks Lord_Sauron for prompting another thought. Perhaps Aragorn was able to show Sauron the future, of him resplendent on the throne of Gondor. What effect would that have on Sauron? Not only does he see the heir of Elendil; not only is he seeing the future; this is proof that Aragorn truly is the heir and rightful owner of the palantír.
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cirdaneth
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on: August 22, 2013 01:21
I think he'd only have had to show him the sword and maybe the Ellessar.
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 22, 2013 04:38
Also Cirdaneth Aragorn had the Ring of Barahir
findemaxam48
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on: August 27, 2013 12:55
I think that all Sauron would need to see would be Aragorn with Anduril, and that would cause him to see the threat that he was up against.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: August 28, 2013 07:46
I'm sure that when Sauron saw Aragorn, he was seen as the rightful user of all stones and he would have quickly realized that he was heir to Gondor's throne. He likely saw Aragorn, not as a traveler in well worn garb but rather, as the true King and his main opponent in the war to come.
Gandolorin
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on: November 27, 2013 03:24
I think what really hit Sauron was that Aragorn was able to tear this Palantir entirely away from Sauron's control and bring it entirely under his own control.
By contrast: Saruman, though a Maia, was ensnared by Sauron through the Orthanc Palantir. Denethor was able to resist becoming ensnared while using the Minas Tirith Palantir, but Sauron seemed to be able to 'edit' what he saw to some degree, so that Denethor (mostly?) saw things that did not lift his spirits. He also seemed to have acquired some knowledge of who Aragorn really was, (more ‘editing’ by Sauron? Perhaps …) but in his pride would not accept Aragorn's claim.
Having met his match in Aragorn in the struggle over the Orthanc Palantir, Sauron was panicked a bit by the assumption that Aragorn may have had the One Ring, distracting him and leading him to strike too early – Aragorn’s main aim, probably, which was eminently successful.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: November 27, 2013 11:49
In a way it is kind of ironic Saruman a Maia is ensnared by Sauron, while a simple Hobbit Peregrin who knows everything about the Ring and the plan to destroy it was able to not let Sauron know about it. However, perhaps if Pippin had the Palantir a little bit longer it might have been a different outcome.
PSK
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on: November 28, 2013 12:57
post 100 woohoo!!!!
I think you are right but also saruman was of a different mind and heart. He is easy corruptable however hobbits, as gandalf says, are tougher than they look

[Edited on 11/28/2013 by PSK]
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tarcolan
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on: November 28, 2013 04:30
I think Sauron was just too arrogant and assumed Pippin had been captured as Gandalf says. I can't really see any hobbit standing up to determined interrogation. Aragorn's revelation would have been doubly painful and disturbing to Sauron as he realised his mistake.
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Hanasian
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on: November 30, 2013 12:58
Gandolorin said:I think what really hit Sauron was that Aragorn was able to tear this Palantir entirely away from Sauron's control and bring it entirely under his own control.
By contrast: Saruman, though a Maia, was ensnared by Sauron through the Orthanc Palantir. Denethor was able to resist becoming ensnared while using the Minas Tirith Palantir, but Sauron seemed to be able to 'edit' what he saw to some degree, so that Denethor (mostly?) saw things that did not lift his spirits. He also seemed to have acquired some knowledge of who Aragorn really was, (more ‘editing’ by Sauron? Perhaps …) but in his pride would not accept Aragorn's claim.
Having met his match in Aragorn in the struggle over the Orthanc Palantir, Sauron was panicked a bit by the assumption that Aragorn may have had the One Ring, distracting him and leading him to strike too early – Aragorn’s main aim, probably, which was eminently successful.


That pretty much echoes my thinking of this Gandolorin. Of course, the battle to wrest control of the Palantir away from Sauron did take a toll on Aragorn, as I believe it says that he appeared to have aged some. I don't have my book handy to look that up. Still, he lived to age 210 which was considered quite good even for Dunedain.
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Gandolorin
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on: November 30, 2013 08:42
Arveleg said:

... Of course, the battle to wrest control of the Palantir away from Sauron did take a toll on Aragorn, as I believe it says that he appeared to have aged some. ...


I'm pretty sure that in "appeared to have aged some" the emphasis should be on appeared. I’m sure he wasn't quite fresh as a daisy after the murderous ride from the Stone of Erech to Pelargir either. In both (and certainly other instances - think about his capturing Gollum - near Mordor? - and taking him to Thranduil's realm in the north of Mirkwood) cases he was and looked worn out by a massive effort, from which he recovered after appropriate rest, I would guess.
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tarcolan
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on: November 30, 2013 01:02
I don't think Denethor found out about Aragorn from Sauron. Pippin had already let slip his name and Denethor was quite capable of discovering more by ordinary means. I imagine that plenty of gossip had reached Minas Tirith about him.

When did Sauron find out who Aragorn was? He suspected that the line of Elendil still survived in the North, he may have suspected that the Ranger with the hobbits on Weathertop and with the Fellowship was the heir, but when exactly was he certain? Possibly only when Aragorn used the palantir. Would he be in a hurry to disclose this to Denethor?
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Gandolorin
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on: December 02, 2013 03:18
Well, Denethor (II) never explicitly states where he gets his knowledge of far-away events, that he must have used the Minas Tirith Palantir only becomes pretty much a certainty after the fact. Not only through the Palantir, of course. As Gandalf says to Pippin after the latter’s interrogation by Denethor, Pippin was obviously not able to conceal from Denethor that after Gandalf’s fall into the abyss of Moria, it was NOT Boromir who – without any discussion - became the new leader of the fellowship.
His specific knowledge of Aragorn? Going far back, Aragorn served under Denethor’s father Ecthelion II under the assumed name of Thorongil (and under Theoden’s father Thengel under the same name). Denethor had reason to remember Thorongil, as he (Denethor) was, though heir to the throne, somewhat eclipsed by the latter during “Thorongil’s” time in Minas Tirith. And Aragorn had certainly aged much less than Denethor (who was actually one year older than Aragorn) over the years, making recognition probably not all too hard.
Denethor blurts out his knowledge of Aragorn (in a rage) in the chapter “The Pyre of Denethor”. I have the three-volume edition of the LotR dated 2002, the one with the illustrations by Alan Lee. This, despite being three volumes, is paginated continuously, so the pages I’m referring to are 864 (bottom half) and 865 (top half). Extremely compressed version with some American coloration: He AIN’T steppin’ down for no Daniel Boone!!!

[Edited on 12/02/2013 by Gandolorin]
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tarcolan
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on: December 02, 2013 04:10
Denethor says with regard to Pippin "And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions." and then goes on to talk of "this Ranger" supplanting him. I don't think he needed a palantir to put two and two together. I'm sure he had guessed before then who Strider was. There is also no reason to believe that he recognised Thorongil as Aragorn. Why would he at that time? Are you saying that he saw Aragorn in the palantir later and recognised him?

I can't believe that any of those who used the palantiri at that time had much control over them, although Denethor had the greatest right. It is problematic as it begs too many questions. I would suggest that they only linked to each other and could not be used to gaze wherever the user wished, including Denethor. It's true that as Sauron knew of Aragorn by that time and could have informed Denethor, I don't think Denethor would need to find out in that way. I'm also not convinced that it would help Sauron to disclose it.
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Gandolorin
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on: December 03, 2013 01:33
Probably the major source of information on the palantiri is “Unfinished Tales”, section III of part 4.
Yes, they were used for communication from stone to stone, though as they did not transmit sound, this communication was more like telepathy. Interesting point is that if two stones were in contact with another, which is conjectured to have happened between Minas Tirith (Denethor) and Orthanc (Saruman), then a third stone would find both of them blank and be unable to butt in, even Sauron. Even eavesdropping was only possible with Master Stone of Osgiliath, which had been lost by the time of the War of the Ring.
But they could be used like telescopes, too, ones with x-ray vision no less! But what was looked at must itself have some light cast on it, so anything in total darkness – i.e. of a cave – could not be seen, they were not able to project light. There was also something called shrouding which could prevent them from seeing, but knowledge of what exactly this shrouding was had long been lost.
The amount of magnification provided by the stones depended on the willpower of the user, extending up to being able to recognize someone, or even if they were wearing a ring.
But the ability to use a stone was even more dependent on the user’s right to use the stone. And here Sauron was the low man on the totem pole! Saruman had a bit more right, having been given control of Orthanc by the Stewards. Those, in turn, being regents in a King’s absence, had much more of a right. In fact, the Stewards were, as long as there was a King, the ones to whom the use of the stones had been delegated. Thus Denethor is stated as being able to keep Sauron from wrenching the Minas Tirith stone towards himself with the former Minas Ithil stone in his possession “and could only influence him [Denethor] by deceits” (whatever that means, it puzzles me). Denethor remained able to freely use the Minas Tirith stone as a “telescope”.
And top of the heap was Aragorn, heir of Isildur and Elendil. His right superseded that of anyone else’s, he could rightly have demanded that Denethor surrender the Minas Tirith stone to him.
Besides the struggles by Denethor and Aragorn to keep or wrench control of their respective stones away from Sauron, which was extremely trying, the unimpeded use of the stones in itself was tiring. Denethor is surmised to have made use of the Minas Tirith stone immediately after his succession to the Stewardship in 2984 TA, not long after “Thorongil” had left Minas Tirith. Denethor was hostile to both Thorongil” and Gandalf during the later days of his father’s stewardship and wanted to know more than these two “usurpers, the stone helping him in this.

[Edited on 12/03/2013 by Gandolorin]
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tarcolan
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on: December 03, 2013 05:41
Thanks Gamdolorin, I stand corrected. Denethor was using the stone but it does raise some awkward questions. Why didn't he know about the ambush waiting for the Rohirrim? Did he know of the Fellowship and its purpose? Surely he would be eager to know the whereabouts of his son. Did he wonder what two hobbits and a gangly creature were doing wandering the wilds? Would he not have intercepted them? And if he had recognised Aragorn via the palantir, why say different, as in my last post? I am also puzzled by Sauron's 'deceits'. ("Don't look over there, nothing to see." Especially as it is not possible to make the stones lie.

What's notable about the account in UT is that no mention is made of the ability of the palantiri to see things in days "far remote", as Gandalf states (TTT, The Palantir). Yet more problems. The palantiri are another example of one of Tolkien's sudden inspirations which end up causing more trouble than they're worth.
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Gandolorin
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on: December 04, 2013 02:53
I don't know about more trouble than they’re worth. One of the points made by Tom Shippey (I believe) is that for all its length and attention paid to detail, the LotR still has so much “hovering around the edges”, far more so than The Hobbit. Some of it is cleared up by the published Silmarillion, some in UT, some in HoME. The latter, at least for me, occasionally had the opposite effect of muddling things up (I remembered things from HoME, so when I reread the “canonical” works I had my occasional “huh?” moments.)
The characters in the book can talk about things in asides (the narrator too), which leave us scratching our heads. It’s what Shippey called the feeling of depth, the feeling of vast unseen histories lurking in the background - which actually were there (though not known until later)! That, to my feeling, is what no writer of fantasy before or after JRRT has ever equaled or ever will. Even with a feeling for languages to equal JRRT (doubtful), no one can receive the rigorous schooling he had, that old syllabus is gone.
My guess is that if he was given the lifespan of Aragorn, he would still not finish.
So we have loose ends, several, often contradictory history strands – pretty much as is the case with real history. And that leaves sooo much room for speculation – wouldn’t be half as much fun without it!

[Edited on 12/04/2013 by Gandolorin]
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Gandolorin
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on: December 05, 2013 01:13
Tolkien was more of a visionary then I realized! What are the current equivalents of the palantiri? Chartrooms and webcams!
To rationalize what Denethor may have seen or not (and JRRT had a lot of rationalization to do after the LotR was published!):
Using the P as a webcam was the extreme opposite of our being in couch potato mode – except for the zapping. We stay with a channel, we miss everything going on all the other channels. Same thing with a P: look in one direction (especially with high magnification), and you miss everything going on at the same time starting just left and right of your focus.
Where would Denethor have concentrated his interests? Where he expected trouble to be brewing. So look to Orthanc, before he might have become suspicious of Saruman? To Rohan, Rivendell, or (what for?) the Shire?
There was no “save this precise angle” storage function to the Ps. No GPS, either. So finding small groups (such as the Fellowship) would be time-consuming. And the Fellowship was chosen so precisely because such a small group should be unobtrusive.
With usage of the Ps so tiring, and a “day job” as a Steward, he was left with the night to do his looking (now what does THAT remind me of, even in days prior to online games? ). The tower of Cirith Ungol may have been on the list of his regular checks, so (so Tom Shippey speculates) he may have seen Frodo being a prisoner there – but draws the wrong conclusion, because at that time Sam had The One Ring. Wrong conclusions (again as per Shippey) abound in the LotR, the one thing that seems to have been in favor of the anti-quest (the anti being another thing that makes the LotR unique).

[Edited on 12/05/2013 by Gandolorin]

[Edited on 12/05/2013 by Gandolorin]
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cirdaneth
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on: March 16, 2014 05:15
I'm just trying to put myself in Sauron's place (most unpleasant ... but no need for alarm)...

When Wormtongue throws the palantir from the tower it is temporarily obscure by being wrapped in Gandalf's cloak. When next unwrapped, Sauron sees a Halfling, and assuming the palantir is still in Orthanc, believes that Saruman has Frodo, and therefore the ring. Gandalf high-tails it to Gondor with Pippin, leaving the palantir with Aragorn, who wraps it in his cloak. The next unwrapping takes place in the Burg where Aragorn shows him the sword. Shocked that the heir of Elendil lives and still believing the stone is in Orthanc, Sauron assumes that Aragorn has taken Isengard, the Halfling, and the Ring. Aragorn will have been at pains to stop Sauron identifying the palantir's present location and keep him focussed on the threat to his supremacy.

Just a thought.

[Edited on 03/16/2014 by cirdaneth]
Gandolorin
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on: March 16, 2014 10:41
Putting oneself in Sauron's place, versus his putting himself in place of others - one of the core differences between Sauron and his adversaries which led to his downfall. Saruman and Gandalf, as the highest in power, could do think of themselves as Ring-Lords - Saruman being a wannabe, Gandalf utterly rejecting using the ring. Elrond, and much more on-stage Galadriel, were also aware that the ring could just not be put to good use - though they may also have had the native power to use the One Ring to defy and defeat Sauron. This gets more iffy with Aragorn and even more so Faramir (think of the wraithing danger), but they also were quite clear on the unusability of the One Ring for good, in contrast to Boromir and even Denethor (to repeat a point where I could beat PJ about the head with two-by-fours!)
And Sauron on the opposite side? He quite simply WAS NOT ables to put himself in the place and minds of his opponents. His only feared that someone with sufficient abilities would be able put the ring to use, and oust him. What he simply could not imagine in his wildest dreams was an attempt to actually destroy the One Ring (i.e. not lust for power). But then he was very ignorant about Hobbits, except for Sméagol / Gollum. And even there, Sauron sensed that there was something ultimately indomitable in this small creature (don't ask me where, HoME in the widest sense), beyond his abilities to control, as it proved in the end.
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Hanasian
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on: October 25, 2014 06:20
Gandolorin said:
Arveleg said:

... Of course, the battle to wrest control of the Palantir away from Sauron did take a toll on Aragorn, as I believe it says that he appeared to have aged some. ...


I'm pretty sure that in "appeared to have aged some" the emphasis should be on appeared. I’m sure he wasn't quite fresh as a daisy after the murderous ride from the Stone of Erech to Pelargir either. In both (and certainly other instances - think about his capturing Gollum - near Mordor? - and taking him to Thranduil's realm in the north of Mirkwood) cases he was and looked worn out by a massive effort, from which he recovered after appropriate rest, I would guess.


For some reason, when I read it the first time, and I've had no reason to alter my perception in subsequent readings, that it took a bit more of Aragorn than what a simple nap could wash it away. His tough rides and wandering was likely quite a strain, more physically then mentally I believe. But am of the opinion that battling with the mind via Palantiri against one of the Maia would be really stressful, and I think Aragorn had to throw in quite a bit of himself to finally wrest control away from Sauron. Just how I read it I suppose.

[Edited on 10/25/2014 by Arveleg]
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Gandolorin
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on: October 27, 2014 12:18
@ Arveleg: just an aside about how fitting, or rather unfitting, control of the Orthanc and Minas Tirith Palantirs by Sauron is as a concept. When Orthanc and Minas Tirith were conversing with one another, both appeared blank to Sauron, and he could do nothing about it. It was his ability to telepathically dominate the other user's mind and will when in direct contact that seemed to give him control of a distant Palantir.

Hypothesis: Sauron (and Gandalf) may have been more susceptible to being influenced precisely because they were also Maiar. With Saruman, it goes further in that he was a Maia of Aulë, as Sauron had been in his beginnings. And that they had become of like mind how the One Ring was to be put to use - though certainly not about the user. I would guess that Gandalf The White was ultimately immune to Sauron, though a confrontation would not have been a piece of cake for Gandalf, either.

Now I would agree that facing Sauron via Palantir was the toughest thing Aragorn had done up to that time. But if Denethor II had started using the Minas Tirith Palantir immediately after becoming Ruling Steward in 2984 (a hypothesis I quoted in an earlier post here), he had been doing so for 35 years at the time of his death in 3019. Did he? How intensively over the years? When did he first overcome Sauron's attempt to dominate him? Did he face more than one such challenge? We don't know. But I would guess that Denethor had been using his Palantir intensively at least for several months before Aragorn took control of the Orthanc Palantir. So just from that assumption, Denethor must have suffered far more wear and tear from his use of his Palantir as Aragorn did from his.

One difference might be surmised. Denethor, though commander of the one force (Gondor) that was holding fast so far against Sauron's forces, was still a foe that Sauron could feel confident of overcoming after his patient build-up of overwhelming forces, unleashing them when he felt the time to be ripe. No need to exert himself in a futile attempt to dominate Denethor.

Aragorn was a complete shock to Sauron. Sauron may have thrown his will to dominate at Aragorn as he never had before against anyone else - only to fail utterly - and then panic. So Aragorn faced Sauron's maximum effort, which Denethor never had to deal with. Again, I think Denethor would have warded this maximum effort off, but he would have looked utterly ancient after it. And Aragorn forced Sauron's hand. Sauron struck too early, most importantly he emptied the camps in Mordor which would have made it impossible for Frodo and Sam and Gollum to reach Mount Doom had they stayed put.

And a last afterthought: after panicking Sauron, Aragorn and the Grey Company rode the Paths of the Dead, Aragorn forced the Dead Men of Dunharrow into his service, all of them rode to Pelargir to take the ships of the Corsairs of Umbar by a rout, and rowed, at the end sailed to Minas Tirith to provide the death blow to the forces that the Witch King had led there.

Aragorn did anything but nap after facing Sauron with the Palantir!
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Sarniel
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on: November 27, 2014 02:06
If it is impossible to make the Palantirs lie and the communication boils down to pure willpower, could the deciets through which Sauron was controlling Denethor be the way Sauron telepatically influenced the way Denethor percieved what he saw through the Palantir, without influencing the actual Palantir? In turn Aragorn would have done the same to Sauron.

Another thing: the Palantirs were supposed to be able to see through time as well, but only when used by kings in days past. Now could Aragorn actually use the Palantir in such a way as suggested, therefore showing Sauron the future of his defeat or did his blood no longer hold such power? I know he could bend the Palantir to his will, but could he actually use it to the full extent of its power is what I'm asking.



[Edited on 11/27/2014 by Sarniel]

[Edited on 11/27/2014 by Sarniel]
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
Hanasian
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on: November 30, 2014 02:33
Sarniel said:If it is impossible to make the Palantirs lie and the communication boils down to pure willpower, could the deciets through which Sauron was controlling Denethor be the way Sauron telepatically influenced the way Denethor percieved what he saw through the Palantir, without influencing the actual Palantir? In turn Aragorn would have done the same to Sauron.

Another thing: the Palantirs were supposed to be able to see through time as well, but only when used by kings in days past. Now could Aragorn actually use the Palantir in such a way as suggested, therefore showing Sauron the future of his defeat or did his blood no longer hold such power? I know he could bend the Palantir to his will, but could he actually use it to the full extent of its power is what I'm asking.


Mae govannen Samiel! Welcome to the Council of Elrond!

Yes, I believe Aragorn had the full ability of the Kings of his line. It was quite possible that once he wrested control away from Sauron, he showed him his downfall. This of course would have irritated Sauron to no end , for it would be one of the ways Aragorn showed him that an heir of Isildur still lived. I was always of the belief that the encounter of Aragorn and Sauron through the Palantir was quite something.
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