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Coleslaw
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on: December 25, 2013 01:40
Hey, I am a new member but have been following this site for years and I am sorry if this has already been discussed and if so can someone point me in that direction but here goes. I have 3 main questions and my theories on them 1. What exactly will the ring do for Sauron. In the book it states that the Ring will give him command of the other rings and their bearers and all that is wrought by them will be laid bare does that mean with the ring he could instantly destroy lothlorien for example because it was enhanced by Galadrials ring? Second do you believe that isildur cutting the ring off destroyed sauron because I'm more inclined by what the book says to believe that Gil-glad and Elendil actually defeated Sauron and Isildur simply took the ring from the defeated Sauron as a family heirloom/prize because of his fathers death (and the rings influence). Lastly how exactly was Sauron defeated. His life force was not bound to the ring because at one point he thought it destroyed. I understand all the stuff he made being destroyed but how was he himself defeated? I read somewherenthat the wind mentioned is man we and it is he who overthrew Sauron. Sorry it is so long but I just would like to hear everyone else's opinion on these topics.
Coleslaw
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on: December 25, 2013 01:41
I meant manwë not man we.
Lord_Sauron
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on: December 25, 2013 06:04
I don't know if you have read the Silmarillion but there is a chapter in it called Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

Although Sauron never touched the Three rings that Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf wear they are still bound to the One Ring that Sauron created to rule all the others. Lets say that Sauron did get his Ring back the first thing that would likely occur would be that Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf will take their rings off so that they do not become servants of Sauron. Then Lothlorien and Rivendell would be left unprotected because Galadriel and Elrond use their Rings to hide and protect their Realms from evil. Sauron would then likely come forward and destroy their realms and of course the elves that live there.

When I get a chance I will try and answer those other two questions .
Ilandir
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on: December 26, 2013 02:25
Following on what Lord_Sauron has said, I'll try and tackle the next two questions together - since they are intrinsically linked.

First of all, a distinction has to be made between the film and the book. As far as I'm concerned the book does not described any wind which sweeps over the battlefield as Isildur cuts off the Ring. That is a film invention.

And whilst the theory of Manwe is an interesting one, after the events of The Silmarillion, the Valar did not interfere with the events of the people in Middle-earth (except for the sending of the Istari).

So in conclusion, it was Isildur who defeated Sauron. But this is where it gets tricky.

Sauron is a Maia, powerful way beyond the abilities of Men and with the Ring worn on his finger, he would be practically unstoppable. In the book, both Elendil and Gil-galad are slain by Sauron and it was up to Isildur to destroy him - by separating the Ring from his body.

But how did a "simple cut" to the finger occur to such a powerful being?

I'm not sure there's a definite answer, and probably it has to be taken more as poetic licence, rather than trying to obey the rules of Tolkien's world. (Then again, in The Silmarillion, Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth - a Vala - seven times, so it was possible to wound a higher being, strictly speaking)

Then again, it has everything to do with Isildur's lineage, the history and purpose of Narsil and the concept of Fate - which weaves the lives and destinies of all characters under the control of Eru, Iluvatar.

Hope that helped in "assisting" at least the complexities of the questions!

[Edited on 12/26/2013 by Ilandir]
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tarcolan
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on: December 27, 2013 12:36
I thought the wind in the film was to represent the dissipating spirit of Sauron.

There are no definitive answers to your questions in the legendarium. The descriptions are deliberately vague I think, precisely to avoid embarrassing questions such as how Gil-Galad and Elendil managed to overthrow Sauron whilst ending up dead themselves. I think it was the removal of the Ring which actually diminished Sauron and sent his spirit to wander in the wastelands for a thousand years. The Ring survived and therefore Sauron's power was undiminished. I think it was just the shock of losing it that caused his downfall.

Outside the story we can see in the book the evolution of Tolkien's conception of the Ring. As you say, at first Gandalf says Sauron believed the Elves had destroyed it. (We'll leave the question of how on earth he could know this.) He also tells Frodo that he always knew that it was one of the Great Rings, a fact which seems to have slipped his mind for eighty years, but he was very busy. At the Council of Elrond they consider either hiding the Ring or destroying it simply to stop Sauron getting it. It is only said that his power would be diminished if it were destroyed.

It is never suggested that they must destroy it to vanquish him utterly. It is only toward the end of the story that Gandalf states this for the first time. In fact Sauron seems to be doing pretty well without the Ring, and his main concern seems to be to keep any other from using it.

These inconsistencies didn't bother Tolkien much and if we take the story as a legend passed down to us then it is easier to accept them as results of mis-translation and mis-telling. We can believe whatever suits our understanding and enjoyment, and not get bogged down in Ring-lore, palantir-lore, Nazgul-lore and the like.
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Coleslaw
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on: December 28, 2013 11:44
Wow, thank you everyone for responding. These are interesting points, and I had never even thought about Gandalf and the elves taking off their rings (even though now it seems so logical) if sauron got his before you made that point. It makes pefect sense and adds another layer of complexity/fun things to think about the elves trying to resist without the rings powers.

Thank you for the answer about isildur and sauron business. I never really thought about necesarilly how he was defeated per say only that the sentence structure/order of Tolkien lead me to believe what I posted earlier. I have do not really have context of the simmarillion (having begrudgingly forced myself to read it once just to say I have of which I retained very little) so my knowledge of the "power levels" of the characters I feel is very low with characters not really dscussed in large amount of details in the lotr trilogy. So i honestly never really took it into account. You brought up very interesting points about this and it is really cool. I realize there is a lot ambiguity with this and thanks for answering.

As far as the manwe question I realize now I did not make this very clear. I was actually referring to the defeat of Sauron in return of the king not his second age defeat. So I hope someone can help me with that.

I was also wondering if anybody else wanted to post any cool tidbits of fun fan theory that they would like to share because I find all of this very awesome.

Again thank you all.
Lord_Sauron
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on: December 29, 2013 12:06
I don't remember Sauron being blown away by wind in the Rotk book (been a while since I read it). I do recall that when Saruman died his spirit floated above his body then it went West but was blown away by a gust of Wind.
tarcolan
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on: December 29, 2013 01:00
"...and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away..."
- Book VI Chapter IV, The Field Of Cormallen

This was presumably the final dissipation of his spirit. How he was vanquished is a moot point. It was not possible for anyone, not even Sauron, to destroy the Ring. Perhaps not even possible for the Ring to destroy itself accidentally. Did Gollum fall?

...the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistable by incarnate creatures...
- Letter 191 to J. Burn

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ElfofCave
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on: January 01, 2014 09:22
Hi, I’ll probably repeat what some of the others have said, but here are my two cents:

In Letter #131 Tolkien discusses the powers of the One Ring: it had the power to prevent or slow decay, and it enhanced the natural power of the one possessing it. It could also make the wearer invisible and make things of the invisible world visible. Lastly, as you say, it had the power to enslave the other ringbearers.

Galadriel and Elrond primarily used their Ring to preserve and protect their realm from the Shadow (much as Melian did Doriath in the First Age). If Sauron regained the One I don’t think he could sit on his throne in Mordor and destroy Lórien (or Imladris) with “a thought”, but he could remove their “magical” defences, so that his armies could more easily destroy them – and if he came in person, could likely tear down structures like Galadriel did with the walls of Dol Guldur.

Why the One was essential to Sauron is described in the same letter: “…he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared.”
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131)

There is little doubt that it was Isildur that delivered the final blow, but it was Gil-galad’s and Elendil’s efforts that enabled him to do so.

“But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.” (The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

“Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows.”
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131)
Hanasian
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on: October 30, 2014 05:22
Note that "Sauron was also thrown down". He was on the ground when Isildur used the broken Narsil to cut the ring from his hand.
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Gandolorin
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on: October 30, 2014 12:48
Just a thought, at the danger of repeating myself or what others have written.

Do not forget that, no matter how great Sauron's (or even Morgoth's) power was, it was finite.

So, if this power was dissipated in any way, the native power of these two Dark Lords was reduced. This is basically the theme of HoME volume 10, "Morgoth's Ring", that Morgoth in his nihilistic attempt to control all of Arda totally overextended himself. Sauron was perfectly rational in comparison to Morgoth in this sense. What Morgoth apparently never realized is that, mighty as he and the small minority of his followers in the Music of the Ainur were, they had far less chance of having their way than did Fëanor and his followers in their attempt to defeat Morgoth. He was doomed in his rebellion from the start (where did I read it ... Morgoth just before his defeat by the Hosts of the West was less of a threat that Sauron would have been at the time ...)

Morgoth had dissipated himself massively (think of the Lamps of the Valar etc.), so that he in his incarnate form was vulnerable to an Elf like Fingolfin, who had been enhanced by his stay in Aman.

Then to Sauron. First defeat: against Huan and Lúthien at Minas Tirith of the First Age. Second defeat: destruction of Númenor. Third defeat: losing his One Ring at the end of the Second Age. Gil-Galad was the High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth, Elendil a direct descendant of Elros first King of Númenor. By then, able to hurt him, though dying in the process. Isildur gave him the (temporary) coup-de-grace. And at the end, Hobbits do him in. Nice touch.
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