Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » orks and goblins
12
Author Topic:
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: June 19, 2014 01:04
Thanks again, Elthir. The intention at least is clear.
Hangman Helper program
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: June 20, 2014 12:19
I wonder if it has any connection to the complex plural endings in Sindarin where there are different plurals for a) more than one b)as a group in general.
Elthir
Council Member
Posts: 433
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: June 20, 2014 09:18
I should add that I forgot to mention a notable statement about Orc in the early 1950s Silmarillion writings -- to compare with the later 1950s and early 1960s idea that Orc was itself a translation [not Westron nor Elvish], or at least a word used by the modern translator.

In The Annals of Aman Elfwine says: 'Orcs we may name them; for in days of old they were strong and fell as demons. Yet they were not of demon kind.' and Christopher Tolkien comments that this 'suggests that Orcs is Old English (...) conveniently similar to the Elvish word.'

Notably these are the words of a person who spoke Old English, and seemingly the Modern English translator is likewise employing Orc in this way. That said, I've no idea how the Elfwine transmission was supposed to work when considering Appendix F On Translation!

To me this seems similar to the ideas in the later 1950s. A very general outline about the word Orc then, might go...

Early, Book of Lost Tales

Orc is an actual Elvish word: 'QL ork (orq-) 'monster, demon' GL orc 'goblin'. [BOLT Appendix, Qenya Lexicon, Gnomish Lexicon]

Jump to the 1930s in The List of Names we have Gnomish orch Qenya ork, orqui and the statement from JRRT: 'sometimes translated 'Goblins', but they were nearly human stature'

And Etymologies [possibly later than the list]: Qenya orko Noldorin orch Doriathrin urch Danian urc

I note that these Elvish words from Etymologies are not exactly 'orc' anymore.

Jump to the 1950s Orc is seemingly now Old English, employed by Elfwine.

Later 1950s early 1960s [Quendi and Eldar, WPP]

Common Eldarin *rauku or *rauko [words hailing from these were for the larger and more terrible enemy shapes]. Also ancient *urku or *uruku.

So we have Quenya urko, Sindarin influenced orko. Sindarin urug, orch. And Adunaic urku, urkhu 'underlies the words for Orc in the languages of Men of the North-West in the Second and Third Ages'. Black Speech uruk 'probably borrowed' from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. Dwarvish Rukhs.

And it's noted that the word used in translation of Elvish words is Orc because of the similarity of the Ancient English word orc.

Words, Phrases and Passages: Orc is an 'adaptation'. There is a Westron word Orka. Quenya Orco adapted from Sindarin orch.

Later 1960s Westron word Orc.

Or even more simply, over the years Orc seemingly went from being actual Elvish, to Old English translation [or similar], to actual Westron.

[Edited on 06/20/2014 by Elthir]
PSK
Council Member
Posts: 1410
Send Message
Post
on: August 24, 2014 12:22
I remember (possibly in the Silmarillion)the phrase "Black Orcs of Mordor" Does this mean that black orcs are a different race, or that the orcs of mordor are black?
Another question is: Could the diffirences in the types of orcs be a reflection of the elvish racial differences, since orcs were once elves?
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Elthir
Council Member
Posts: 433
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: August 25, 2014 04:06
I recall this, at the moment [from a book scene in Moria]...

'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor...'


Hmm, my interpretation of this much, at least, is that these Orcs were dark-skinned, although another way to read the word 'black' in this sentence could be as an echo of the word evil I guess.

Still, Tolkien does employ swart 'having dark complexion' [swarthy] for the great orc chieftain who then attacks, who I think must be one of these black uruks [I note he wears black mail too]...

'a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot [...] His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear'


Then there is this, from Appendix A...

'In the last year of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.'


Again I took this to mean dark of skin. Ugluk and the Isengarders appear to be dark skinned.

In the twilight he saw a large black Orc, probably Uglúk, standing facing Grishnákh, a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground.

[...]

The hobbits were left with the Isengarders: a grim dark band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short board-bladed swords.


But in any case one could be a small breed and be black-skinned. After Frodo and Sam escape from the tower of Cirith Ungol...

Presently two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils; it was evidently a tracker of some kind. The other was a big fighting orc, like those of Shagrat's company...


In other words... I don't know

With respect to the source of orcs, that is a somewhat complicated question, as Orcs hailing from corrupted Elves was only one of JRRT's ideas.

Tolkien published Treebeard saying that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, which however need not mean made from Elves [and arguably did not mean 'made from Elves' when Tolkien wrote this, actually].

[Edited on 08/25/2014 by Elthir]
12
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email