Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Movies Discussion » Discuss the Movies » Prejudice Among Elves
Author Topic:
Nordor
Council Member
Posts: 32
Send Message
Avatar
Post Prejudice Among Elves
on: July 12, 2014 10:59
In DOS Tauriel implies that she is unsuitable for Legolas because she is a Sylvan elf; Thranduil apparently agrees. Is this class distinction among elves something Jackson created? In the works of Tokien he has the elves marrying across clan lines unrestrained . I don't see the elves getting caught up in class struggles. What do you think?

[Edited on 07/16/2014 by tarcolan]
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: July 13, 2014 08:54
I'm still considering this one Nordor. Good question.
Hangman Helper program
~nólemë~
Fan Creations Admin & Creations Forum Moderator
Posts: 10427
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: July 13, 2014 10:29
No, it's not something Jackson created. He's apparently playing at stuff hinted at in the Silmarillion - some of the Noldor feeling superior to all Dark Elves, some of the Sindar (Thranduil's clan) showing major superiority towards Men, and perhaps to lesser Elves (Nandor). I can't recall precisely now, but I believe there is something about e.g. Saeros being arrogant to all Elves who he perceived lower-ranked than him. Haughtiness is definitely one of the defining qualities of a good number of Silmarillion Elves. It's not unthinkable that some of them would be slow to mellow. Thranduil is known to have issues with the Noldor at least (Galadriel, possibly Celeborn). At least in the Unfinished Tales.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: July 13, 2014 02:00
Tolkien also spoke of the Silvan Elves as "less wise and more dangerous," further indicating that there are differences between the different Elven races.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Cenor
Council Member
Posts: 5267
Send Message
Post
on: July 13, 2014 09:48
But wasn't Thranduil a Silvan Elf? I think it was mentioned in the Hobbit that he was.
Image "Every good pirate has an alias" Felix glanced down, looking at contraption around the stump of his wrist. "Hook," he answered. "My name will be Hook."
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: July 14, 2014 10:26
If my memory serves me and what ~nólemë~ said is true(I don't doubt her a bit ), then Thranduil was Sindar.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: July 14, 2014 05:18
This discussion actually goes beyond class distinctions so I might be changing the title at some point.
Hangman Helper program
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: July 15, 2014 12:39
I think Clan warfare (who is related to whom how) is the more basic theme. But as in the real world, clan and class coincide often enough - much to often, in fact, in a decidedly negative way, when you look at the degeneration of numberless "royal" and "noble" families.
Image
Nordor
Council Member
Posts: 32
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: July 19, 2014 10:42
If Thranduil and Celeborn were Sindarin and Galadriel Noldorin why would the Sylvan elves accept them as nobility? If there were clan/class distinctions why not tell them to keep walking?
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: July 19, 2014 03:51
OK, one part of my comment above was decidedly one about men, and probably irrelevant for Elves of any kind, the degeneration of "royal" families among men in the last 500 to 1000 years. Some of the Silvan Elves were probably among those who awoke at Cuiviénen, and were at least as old as Cirdan and Thingol. So they were older than Galadriel, who was born in Aman. I would simply guess that even these old-timers would recognize that Galadriel, or even Thranduil had experiences way beyond their, the Silvan Elves, possibilities. They wanted smart "people" leading them. (Sarcasm on: boy, have we gone downhill since then! Sarcasm off)
Possibly something like the spread of the Indo-European languages over some millennia BC, which was very likely not a wave of ethnic cleansing invasions by the Indo-European speakers, but the establishment of a new aristocratic class over the indigenous peoples - perhaps paralleled by the spread of agriculture and livestock breeding, the new aristocracy bringing things with them that bettered the lot of the subjugated. The spread of the Celtic "non-empire" was perhaps a repeat of the spread of a new aristocratic class with its language(es), and may have coincided with the spread of the iron age in Europe. (Your history professors may have the urge to beat me about the head with blunt objects for this babbling ...)
Image
~nólemë~
Fan Creations Admin & Creations Forum Moderator
Posts: 10427
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: July 22, 2014 03:36
Nordor said:If Thranduil and Celeborn were Sindarin and Galadriel Noldorin why would the Sylvan elves accept them as nobility? If there were clan/class distinctions why not tell them to keep walking?


Likely because having a more experienced High Elf as a ruler was beneficial for them. The Silvan Elves felt kinship with the Sindar, belonging to the same clan, and the Unfinished Tales add that "[the Silvan Elves] welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [...]. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom."
The use of the word again is important to me here; it seems the Silvan nobility couldn't give the people what they needed to flourish. In Mirkwood the switch to Sindarin rule happened so long ago that the original ruler's (if there was one) name isn't even given. All we know is that it happened early in the Second Age, before the Dark Tower was built. In Lothlorien the rule change happened much later, after the loss of Amdir and Amroth when Galadriel and Celeborn were "welcomed" (quoted) by the residents as keepers. The fact that they didn't give themselves any fancy titles like "king and queen" plays a big role IMO in earning the respect of the Silvan Elves.

The reception of Oropher seems to have gone without any problems in Mirkwood, since he and his few Sindarin followers "deliberately" (quoted) merged with Silvan Elves, and largely abandoned their Sindarin heritage and lifestyle. Which is partly why Thranduil's class distinctions bother me in the movie. Thranduil is not a clone of his father, and might be more haughty, but his movie words re. Silvan Elves still sound too extreme to me.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: July 25, 2014 11:11
Nordor asks - "If Thranduil and Celeborn were Sindarin and Galadriel Noldorin why would the Sylvan elves accept them as nobility? If there were clan/class distinctions why not tell them to keep walking?"

I think we have to take in to account Tolkien's own attitudes. The most obvious example is the relationship between Sam and Frodo. It was commonly understood in Tolkien's early life that the ruling class had a right and a duty to rule. It should also be noted that the concept of 'Manifest Destiny' was also prevalent at the time, of the natural superiority of the Anglo-Saxon race and their task of 'civilising' the world. This was supported by political and religious figures and even by Darwin himself.

Having said that Tolkien seems to have used the word 'race' quite loosely. At one point Aragorn states that he and Elrond are of the same race, where in fact familial line would be more appropriate. Generally where there is enmity between class, clan or race in Tolkien's world it is specific in nature. Mostly though it was accepted that those of a 'higher' class or race were best suited to rule.

PJ has sought to downplay these assumptions in the films such that Sam and Frodo are friends, and Sam does not address Frodo as 'Mr Frodo, sir'. As regards Legolas and Tauriel, isn't this simply a version of the old tales of a love affair between commoner and high-born? Perhaps Tauriel will go to the ball in the third film.

[Edited on 07/26/2014 by tarcolan]
Hangman Helper program
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: July 26, 2014 06:21
The previous few posts have been moved to a new thread in the Book Forum entitled 'The evolution of Tolkien's Quendi and Eldar' where that discussion will continue. Only post here in response to the original OP, thanks.
Hangman Helper program
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email