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Ireth_Telrunya
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on: July 28, 2014 12:49
Been wondering lately about a few certain words, and how verbs might be extrapolated from nouns. For example, "lalith" (laughter). There are a few other words in Sindarin that end in -ith: tirith (guard/watching, as in Minas Tirith), girith (shuddering, as in Nen Girith), cirith (cleft or pass, as in Cirith Ungol).

Looking at these words, the roots are evident. Tir- is "watch", cir- is "cleave". I've never seen "girith" used outside of the name mentioned above, but I can guess that gir- means "shudder". Ditto with "lalaith"; can we assume that lala- means "laugh"?

Are there any other words like this? Am I on the right track with trying to parse them?

On another note, does anyone know the word for "can", or "to be able"? I want to have a character say "I can't dance" in Sindarin, but I don't know the right words. (Come to think of it, I don't know the Sindarin word for "dance", either. The dictionary here only has the Quenya word.) Help, please?
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Galadivren
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on: July 28, 2014 12:58
Although Lalaith is Sindarin, it comes from the Quenya verb Lala- = to laugh, which is often changed into Lal- = to laugh as an Exilic Sindarin verb. The normal verb for 'to laugh' is Gladh- in Sindarin.

Gir- = to shudder is indeed what people tend to assume the verb stem is.

Regarding 'to watch' we not only have the verb stem tir- but also tira- and tiria-.

There is no attested verb for 'to dance' however there is a reconstruction: Liltha-, or some people also use Lilla-.

'To be able to' is generally reconstructed as pol-.



[Edited on 07/28/2014 by Galadivren]
Ireth_Telrunya
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on: July 28, 2014 01:31
Thank you! So just to clarify, "I cannot" in Sindarin would be "U-pelin" [with a long U, which I can't seem to type out]?
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Galadivren
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on: July 28, 2014 03:56
Don't forget that ú causes soft mutation

ú-belin = I cannot, I am unable to (with the intimation 'because I am physically unable to'). This does unfortunately clash with the verb pel- = to fade, wither, so it also looks like 'I do not fade', but context with the verb 'dance' would give the correct translation in this case.
Elhath
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on: July 29, 2014 03:59
The form Lalaith has also been considered somewhat peculiar due to its appearance, but it can certainly always be etymologically explained. Albeit a name passed on by Men, it could arise from proto-Elvish *(g)ládi-lektā (i/ē, tā/tō &c.) "release of laughter", after the Welsh parallel talaith "frontlet, crown" which comes from an old compound *talo-sektā "forehead-attachment" (Morris-Jones 1913, § 206)... But then again, there is also an alternate manuscript form Lalaeth (WJ) whose second syllable would have to historically represent either a t-suffix noun from LAK [a root meaning "swift"] instead, or a poetic form *lag(ā)-ittā "swordess" (< LAG; cf. SYAD)! Hence an easier and more sensible explanation may be that Tolkien was simply experimenting with a Celtic-inspired abstract noun suffix *-akt- > S †-aeth (= Welsh) and a hypothetical, "more Eldarin" variant *-ekt- which became S -aith.

Of course as Galadivren pointed out, a "Sindarin-proper" verb meaning "to laugh" is indeed gladh- (present tense stem *gledhi-) according to Tolkien himself (The Peoples of Middle-Earth p. 359).

Other possible choices for "to be able" are #gar- (II), extrapolated from neledh neledhi gar "three may/are able to go in" (TAI:150) and !tor- from Sindarin's precursor Goldogrin (< PE11:72), sharing the same root as later tûr ["power, control, mastery"] — rather like Latin posse (< potesse), potestas, potentia and Finnish voida, voima, voitto.

[Edited on 07/30/2014 by Elhath]
LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) ❖ On translating "until" ❖ Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed
Ireth_Telrunya
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on: July 31, 2014 08:40
Thanks again!

In looking at the "Useful Elvish Phrases" elsewhere on this site, I found the phrase "E ú-’ar hired râd", which is translated as "He is not able to find a way." I suspect the 'ar is the form of "be able", but with the apostrophe I can't tell what the full root is. Any insight on this and how it might relate or not relate to the aforesaid verb pol-?
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Galadivren
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on: August 03, 2014 02:43
When you see an apostrophe like that, it means the 'g' disappeared.

However. Gar- = to have, to hold.

[Edited on 08/03/2014 by Galadivren]
Ireth_Telrunya
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on: August 03, 2014 02:51
Oooh, I see. So the above sentence would translate (roughly) to something like "He doesn't have finding a way"?
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Galadivren
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on: August 04, 2014 01:51
It literally says...

"He himself does not hold find path."

I think it's a wee bit outdated, if I'm honest!
Ireth_Telrunya
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on: August 04, 2014 02:01
Yeah, it seems that way. ^^;
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Ireth_Telrunya
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on: August 20, 2014 01:47
Something interestng I found: Apparetly the Sindarin words for "to have" and "to be able" are the same word, gar-. I finally found it in the dictionary here, as well as in the lyrics to the song "The End of All Things" from the ROTK soundtrack. The terms "ú-'erin" and "ú-erich" are translated as "I cannot" and "you cannot" three separate times.

Lyrics: http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/thelordoftheringsiii-thereturnoftheking/theendofallthings.htm

[Edited on 08/20/2014 by Ireth_Telrunya]
Far over the Misty Mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns old. We must away ere break of day, to claim our long forgotten gold.
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