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DarthMI
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Post Have you notice a trend many diehard Fantasy fans have not read LOTR?
on: September 19, 2014 01:26
All over the internet and to my shock even in real life book clubs I've been to I am very shocked that the mass amount of diehard fantasy fans have never read LOTR in their life. A few never even watched the Peter Jackson adaptations! By "diehard fantasy fans" I am referring to people who not only put up fantasy themed posters in their rooms, own a large collection of fantasy books in their bookshelf, use fantasy themed avatars and sigs at websites and use fantasy wallpapers on their desktop, and even openly wear fantasy merchandise like Harry Potter keychains and wearing Game of Throne T-Shirts at school.

I am TRULY surprised many have never read a single chapter of Tolkien. Some even admit they are intimidated to even touch the Lord of the Rings (and even The Hobbit!) because of Tolkiens boring needessly complex writing style (despite the fact they never even open a copy of Tolkien's works).

We're talking about fantasy nuts who waste hundreds on merchandise and read not only all the current mainstream hits like Harry Potter and Eragorn at least 5X but even are fans of obscure series I never heard off before I read LOTR and got into fantasy such as The Last Witch and The Wheel of Time (and read these series nearly 10X!!!!)

I am NEW to fantasy. In fact I thought the genre was a load of childish nonsense. The only reason I even ever decided to check out LOTR was because I LOVED Jackson's interpretations and there is so much HYPE around the books along with the fact Tolkien is the MOST MAINSTREAM fantasy along with Harry Potter to the point its often claimed anyone who wishes to understand the genre and to truly be a fantasy fan should have at least read LOTR once. LOTR is so mainstream it came off to me as the "Star Wars" of fantasy.

So to see so many fantasy fans have never read it and even feel intimidated at giving it a shot (despite reading much larger works such as Wheel of Time 5X) was a huge shock. I SWEAR if you ask any random Joe on the street what is fantasy, the first things that will come up is other The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter! From what I seen, far more people who are casual readers (or even hate reading in general) have read Fellowship of the Rings than any of the other obscure titles diehard fantasy fans read exempting Harry Potter (who arguably far more non-readers have probably read Sorceror's Stone at least once).

Have any of you notice this stigma? What do you think of it?
starofdunedain
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on: September 20, 2014 12:28
I have noticed this and confess that I don't understand it. I think part of it may be that they only see the huge 1000 page version of LotR and are intimidated by it. But then again I've seen all-in-one copies of Narnia and average fantasy loving readers reading them, so I don't know.
I even just had a fantasy-reading person ask for recommendations and when I told them Lord of the Rings they said 'no thanks, I'm not interested in Hobbits.'
I don't know if they for some reason think that it has characters that are too fantastic to be believable or they think it will somehow be ridiculous?
Gandolorin
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Post Have you notice a trend many diehard Fantasy fans have not read LOTR?
on: September 20, 2014 12:44
DarthMI said:... LOTR is so mainstream it came off to me as the "Star Wars" of fantasy. ...

Can't say much to the other observations you have made, but here I can: you've got it backwards! Image George Lucas more or less confessed to Star Wars (at least the first movie) practically being LotR in space. Obi-wan Kenobi = Gandalf, Han Solo = Aragorn, Darth Vader = Sauron, to name just the closest similarities. Image
J.K. Rowling is also a Tolkien fan.
Basically, JRRT reinvented fantasy. It would not be nonexistent, but it would look very different in any form of media today without LotR, perhaps be a bit of a niche product.
To paraphrase an insider of the publishing industry, only fantasy is mass market nowadays. Everything else, including what is genarally considered mainstream, is niche.
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cirdaneth
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on: September 21, 2014 01:37
You are preaching to the converted here, Gandolorin, so why not put this thread in the Movie Forum and give the non-readers a kick in the rear? As Movie Mod, what say you Tarcolan?
tarcolan
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on: September 21, 2014 10:25
I don't think anyone will be arguing with DarthMI. It might be better in the Green Dragon. Movies already has a bookie thread. I'll ask Rosearialelven.

Or we could move it to a Game of Thrones site.
DarthMI
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Post Have you notice a trend many diehard Fantasy fans have not read LOTR?
on: September 22, 2014 01:55
Gandolorin said:
DarthMI said:... LOTR is so mainstream it came off to me as the "Star Wars" of fantasy. ...

Can't say much to the other observations you have made, but here I can: you've got it backwards! Image George Lucas more or less confessed to Star Wars (at least the first movie) practically being LotR in space. Obi-wan Kenobi = Gandalf, Han Solo = Aragorn, Darth Vader = Sauron, to name just the closest similarities. Image
J.K. Rowling is also a Tolkien fan.
Basically, JRRT reinvented fantasy. It would not be nonexistent, but it would look very different in any form of media today without LotR, perhaps be a bit of a niche product.
To paraphrase an insider of the publishing industry, only fantasy is mass market nowadays. Everything else, including what is genarally considered mainstream, is niche.


While I have to thank you for the tidbit (never knew Lucas was influenced by Tolkien), I meant by saying "LOTR is the Star Wars of the fantasy genre" in that its easily the most recognizable name in the genre. If you ask any random Joe and even a Sci Fi hater, I guarantee that almost everyone ahd at least watched one of the Star Wars movie once their whole lives and even Sci Fi haters admitted to enjoying Star Wars at least.

LoTR is basically the same. Even before the movies came out, its probably was the most famous fantasy novel of all time and only Narnia and some of the old literature such as Alice in Wonderland can compare in its fame. The movies have propelled LOTR beyond literature that a one-on-one comparison to the Star Wars franchise is not too far fetched (especially sicne we saw games, parodies, and so on published after the box office success that expand upon the original novel and even add in new stuff never written before by Tolkien).

While I doubt anyone outside of literature enthusiasts ever heard of LoTR before the films (despite probably being the most famous fantasy novel circa 2000), the movies propelled it to such a new level of fame to the point its credited along with Harry Potter as proving that strictly fantasy themed films CAN bring profits and it pretty much codified modern fantasy film tropes and convention.

The films are so mainstream without taking inflation into account they practically surpassed the Star Wars films box office gross.

That practically a lot of non Tolkien fans who only seen the films literallly call it the "Star Wars" of the fantasy genre (and indeed it is if we are talking about the massiveness of the franchise and the popularity and etc).
Gandolorin
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on: September 22, 2014 11:35
LoTR RoTK the film also did one thing that no other fantasy film achieved up to then: winning the Academy Award aka Oscar for Best Film in 2003. Christopher Lee states this in the RoTK EE, and I believe him. A quick look at the winners since then (but I must admit I do not know a single one of them) leads me to believe that it is still a singular achievement for a fantasy film to date.
Then there's the 11-of-11 sweep in 2003, tying the record for wins, plus two more categories, one each for FoTR and TTT, for which RoTK was not nominated, and 17 wins overall (Visual Effects three years running).
Of the eight Harry Potter films, six were nominated for a total of 12 Awards, but won none.
Any questions?
@cirdaneth: yes, yes, I know, I know, I'm preaching to the converted here. But a little trivia tidbit like 17-0 Frodo vs. Harry in AAs is something to casually drop on HP fans in conversation.
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findemaxam48
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on: September 22, 2014 02:26
Narnia is easier to read, for one. That might contribute to the fact that people don't like LOTR but enjoy Lewis.
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Gandolorin
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on: September 23, 2014 11:34
As I said above, JRRT basically re-invented fantasy. Trolls, Dwarves and Elves were all to be found in Nordic (i.e. mainly Icelandic) mythology and legends, the Elves also in Ireland (the "Sidhe", some names also to be found among the gods of the Celts of Gaul). But all of the book series about them, and Orcs too, clearly derive from JRRT's take on them (Hardly anyone has written about Hobbits, except perhaps short stories, those mostly to be found in compilations with reference to JRRT). Wizards of the most diverse kind are too common to need referring to.
So while many die-hard fantasy fans may not have read the source (the Big Bang in terms of Astronomy, lightning out of a clear sky in the words of C.S. Lewis), hundreds of millions of readers are reading derivative LotR. And then there are the readers of books whose authors made a conscious decision NOT to emulate JRRT, defining themselves as anti - JRRT, but still defining themselves in reference to him.
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Sawien
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on: October 07, 2014 10:01
There are actually some schools that don't have copies of the books in their libraries. That may be a cause.
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Jedi Knight Elrohir Sparrow
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on: October 26, 2014 05:24
All my friends(well most of them) are die-hard LoTR fans, but like none have read the books except for me. Some of them even say Sell-e-born instead of Kell-e-born. (That's pronunciation for Celeborn)
"A time may come soon, when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised." --Aragorn, Return of the King, pg. 767
parluggla
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on: November 26, 2014 06:32
Tolkien invites me (through his Elves) to go out into a wild place and imagine myself part of a humanoid race that lovingly and respectfully resides therein in total integration and harmony. Awesome! That's not an easy thing to do in words. Hardly any other writers have really tried. Jackson's films catch rare glimpses of this majestic vibe, such as his LotR-FotR Lothlorien scenes.

And so how can modern people relate to such an odd thing? It probably seems like weird cultism to most.

[Edited on 11/27/2014 by parluggla]
Sarniel
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on: November 27, 2014 07:53
I think a lot more people than you think could relate to this if only they bothered to read Tolkien at all. I've always had trouble understanding people who say they're fans of anything just based on televised depiction of the topic. It doesnt only happen with books and movies, you'd have people saying they adore Stephen Hawking after seeing a 5 minute news article about him or a documentary, yet they never even bother to read a bit about his theories, not even the simplified version.

Granted, his theories are pretty advanced science that requires a lot of background knowledge, which is why when it comes to fantasy books, there is no excuse for not reading one if you claim to love the franchise. Books, specially the fantasy kind where the writer invents a whole new world and literally teleports you into it do not require any background knowledge. If you want to understand the metaphors behind a story or where the author was coming from, that's where all that comes into play, but to simply read a fantasy book, there is no prior requirment.

As a lot of people have mentioned, Tolkien is viewed as "heavy" reading material, which tends to discourage readers from ever starting and in my opinion that is just shameful. The complexity (and the beauty) of Tolkien's written language should be all the more appreciated because it is not simple and differs from everyday English. I'm not a native speaker, but I can observe the same thing in my language, how everyone tends to favour simply written books.
I dont mind if people only like the movies and have no interest in reading the books, but such a person should not be going around screaming "Im a Tolkien fan!", no, you're a PJ fan and there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, if I may add: I feel a lot of LOTR fans tend to bash Harry Potter fans for some reason. And quite frankly, I do not understand why, since the two are hardly comparable.

[Edited on 11/27/2014 by Sarniel]
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
parluggla
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on: November 27, 2014 07:40
Yes, Sarniel, Tolkien is "heavy." I would also say reading him is serious going. And so we "fans" have to decide all these decades after his death how serious we are about his world/worldview. Our fellow CoE member Hercynian can be totally fanatical, and I'm sure many people simply won't/can't go there. For a big chunk of "fantasy fans" the whole concept of fantasy is kept separate from "real life." Maybe people see the more "dedicated" of us as being a bit too serious. Well, I'm serious about Tolkien. But I'm not sure where to take this seriousness.
Sarniel
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on: November 28, 2014 01:50
So am I, more than I would care to admit to someone who does not understand it. But I just meant to point out, that because he is deemed heavy it should be all the more reason to read him, not an excuse not to.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
Gandolorin
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on: November 28, 2014 11:49
From personal experience, some readers have to get to Bree. Or more to the point, have to get past Tom Bombadil. I was told to persevere past I-forget-what when I first read the German translation in 1983, but in retrospect I suspect Tom was considered the obstacle. One (or more?) friends of mine have told me Tom's songs drove them batty and put them off the book.
That's the part of FoTR that is (historically understandable) still quite like The Hobbit. The LoTR proper does not start until Strider's appearance, IMO; some would say until Rivendell, which is portrayed so much differently than in the Hobbit.
I just know that when I first read LoTR in the original, and had probably gotten to Bree or Rivendell, I then put in 19 straight hours of reading on a weekend. I am a bookworm, no question, but that was exceptional even for me.
So if people say they find Tolkien "heavy", I would assume they mean LoTR, and I would be interested in what they found "heavy". Speaking for myself (and perhaps those of us and others who have read the Sil, UT, and HoME?), I would quote a Bachman-Turner Overdrive 1974 song title: "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet".
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Sarniel
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on: November 28, 2014 12:39
I actually did not mind Tom, I just thought he did not make much sense the first time I read it, because the Slovene translator got a bit confused when it came to his songs. What was the real obstacle for me was the prologue, where he explains about the hobbits and the pipe weed and so on. That nearly did it for me before the book even started,as I was about 9 when I first read the books (in Slovene). There was this exciting wizard on the cover and then all this. I remember decieding to skip a couple of pages to get to the beginning of the story, and after Bilbo's party I was hooked. When I finished FoTR I went back to reread the prologue

As for the "heavy" part hopefully father's traumatic experience will shed some light. My parents used to read to me from books of my choosing during the evenings even after I was a little child and while I was reading LoTR my dad would read a few pages to me when it was his turn. He would either fall asleep during reading, complain about how we were still on the description of the same tree even after reading one page (not exactly true, but Tolkien does spend a lot of time describing the landscape which my father found extremly boring) or nearly choke to death when he had to pronounce an Elvish name or a specific landmark name. For example, Argonath was too much for him. To this day, he claims that was the worst trauma I've put him through. It usually ended up with me saying I'll read till my bedtime and he can sleep beside me on the couch. For reference, dad is not a big fantasy fan and only enjoys reading about historical naval battles, but he does read quite often.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
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