Welcome Guest 

Register

Author Topic:
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post New here..Looking for some friendly translation dicussion
on: November 30, 2014 06:43
Hi everyone,
I'm new here, and have been dabbling, off and on, for a while, trying to figure out a translation of two phrases (sentence fragments actually) for an art project.

I've learned two things so far.

1 Elven is complex and solving this project myself (to the level of quality/accuracy that I'm after) would likely take a lot of focused study. Probably more than I am capable of in my available time frame.

2 It's generally considered rude to appear out of nowhere, and ask people who have spent a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to become knowledgeable about something, to then give you a quick and easy and free consultation...got it, thanks, see ya around.

So, I'm hoping that I can open a discussion, something that people will be interested in participating in, for the sake of scholarly debate and poetic creativity, and in the process, I might lear some things myself.

Yes..I'm after a translation. But I want to do it right, and with respect for the people who are sharing their knowledge. Anyone want to play?

StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: November 30, 2014 06:54
I might as well continue on, so y'all know what the heck I'm talking about...

Yes, this is for an engagement ring. My girlfriend's name is Sarah Elvington, which translates as Princess of Elven Town (or friends of elves, depending on what you read). So that's part of our elven connection. Pretty cool huh?

Also, she and I pay a lot of attention to mythology and stories, and the archetypes they represent. Especially those of the nature creatures, closer to the natural workings of life. We are both interested in maintaining the "magic" in life by remembering that it comes from the stories we choose to create for ourselves. Defying the monotony of modern life is dependent on "choosing to see" the ancient magic in all things.

So, as she and I write our story, my interest is to translate two typical phrases commonly used in fairy tale storytelling:

"Once upon a time...." to begin the story.
And "...Happily ever after." as the final phrase.

I'm sure you are familiar with both.

My theory for a while was that life should always be "Once upon a time." Never giving up on the adventure, and always creating yet another. "Happily Ever After" sounds like you've achieved happiness, and put it in a box, on a shelf, in the closet, and given up on further adventures. It sounded stagnant to me.

But now, especially with the idea of marriage (and my advancing age), I am choosing to also realize that "Happily Even After" should be a consistent choice too....Our presence in life should reflect both, simultaneously, as much as possible. We shouldn't be postponing happiness for sake the adventure, but living both. Admitting "happily ever after" is the commitment that Sarah is the woman who I want to be my main partner for all my future "once upon a time" adventures. After all, "Happily" is an adverb, suggesting that it is a way to do something, anything, everything. Make sense?

Part of the challenge with both of these phrases, are that they are prepositional phrases, not full sentences, with neither noun/subject's or verbs. That means relating parts of speech, syntax, and singular/plural may be a bit tricky. This is much of what I need help for. I'm hoping that we can think of it as...

"Once upon a time...they (plural noun subject) loved (or some verb)."
and
"They (plural noun subject) lived (verb)...happily ever after."
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: November 30, 2014 07:02
I'm currently thinking that Quenya is the language to use. Though I sort of like the idea that Sindarin is the common tongue, and thus the language that common stories would be told in, around the fire or at bed time. But the ancientness of Quenya makes the story timeless and archetypal. As if it comes from a time so long ago that it actually predates society...Stories written by the gods, and given to the first people. If you have any opinions on this, I'm open to hearing it. But as of now, all my vocabulary research is in Quenya.

I used the Quenya/English dictionary "Quettaparma.pdf" for most of these following word choices. If you have a reference you like better, please point me toward it.

Yes, I've done some vocabulary research already. But I understand that you cant just link together words from the dictionary and end up with Elven. This is where I'll really appreciate some scholarly and poetic input.

Also, before I jump into the Quneya word options I've found so far, I want to mention that I understand there are singular Elven words that mean "once upon a time" such as "andanéya" and "anda né" and " yalúmessë" and "yáressë". My concern is that these have become "singular concepts" rather than literal translations. So, while an elven child may be used to hearing it at the beginning of a story, it may not actually translate directly to what a human child would recognize as our classic opening phrase. I want someone who was un-translating my result to get back to "once upon a time..." specifically, or just conceptually, rather than " It has always been told..." or "in the beginning of Elves" or "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..." or whatever. Make sense?

Anyone yet inspired?

Thanks,
Ben

dirk_math
Quenya Workbook Mentor
Posts: 622
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: December 01, 2014 01:43
Nëa lúmessë mellentë
Anentë cuivë valimbë oialë
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Malinornë
FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & Eldameldë
Posts: 1205
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: December 07, 2014 01:54
Aiya Ben,

I'd like to say a few words about your concerns that some of the Quenya words may have become "singular concepts" rather than "literal translations". In my opinion, we can trust Tolkien that when he writes that "yalúmessë" means "once upon a time", the Quenya phrase means the same to a native speaker of Quenya, as the English phrase does to a native speaker of English. An elf hearing "yalúmessë" should be able to get the concept of "once upon a time", not just the words.

I believe we have more reason to fear too literal translations, as they are more likely to only carry over words, and not the idea or concept behind those words. Just as an example, in Swedish, we wouldn't say "once upon a time", but literally "It was one time". "They lived happily ever after" would be "They lived happily in all their days" and so on.

Then of course, as the elves aren't around, we have to guess our best from what we've studied, and any phrase can often be translated in many ways, using different words to carry over the meaning of the phrase. I guess that's what I'm really trying to say, that when translating things, we should strive to translate the meaning, rather than each separate, individual word.

You will not find a better dictionary than the Quettaparma, so please continue using it
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: December 07, 2014 07:45
Hello Dirk and Malinornë,

Thanks you both for your replies. Sorry for my delay in responding, Dirk, I've been swamped with my day job for the last week.

First to Malinornë. I suspected that someone would argue for this concept, and I admit that there is an attraction to sticking to the Tolkein/Elven interpretation of the meaning. I guess my concern is that unless we "knew" that specific elven colloquialism and it's connotations in story-telling, would we be able to translate it into English as "once upon a time" literally? I understand that an Elf would get it, but would an English-speaker get it? It is the same concern that if an English speaker translated the Swedish equivalent in (as you say) "it was, one time..." would the conceptual connection to our version be obvious? In that example case, probably so. But do we (you, or Dirk) know the same to be true with "Yalúmesse"?

Another example might be translating "hello" into French. The French might have to use "Bonjour" for lack of a literal French equivalent (what the heck does "hello" mean anyway?). But if we were translating "Bonjour" into English, I think it would be disrespectful to say that it translates as "hello," even if that is how we mean it. It would be better to say that it translates as "good day". That is the distinction that I would like to make with "once upon a time", not so much the common meaning but the poetic definition/translation.

In some ways, this may be a moot conversation. If "it was one time" is just a rearrangement of related words in the proper grammer/sytax of the Swedish language, as "once upon a time" is in English, then doing the same appropriate wor rearrangement in Quenya should be the same thing (assuming th right words, rearranged properly). I just want to be sure that "yalúmesse" is actually that.

Lúmesse translates as time (locative), so that's nice. "Yá" translate as "when". And "Ya" translates as "as". Both legitimate possible uses. Should we assume the former? If so, should we add the accent, "Yálúmessë"?

But in either case, if the literal translation is as simple as "when then" or "when at the time", or "as then", are these simple translations unpoetic compared to something more literally?

There sure are some other Quenya words that could relate, and sound cool too. E.G., just for the word "time" there is lú (occasion, a time); lúmissen (at the times); randa (era, cycle, age...I like this); talumë (then, at the that time). Many of these could stand alone. I especially like Randa as it conveys the concept of a whole other era or age, not just a different instant/moment.

I guess that these discussions should be more with Dirk. But I do respect your theory on this, I just want to challenge it a bit further intellectually. (and See what dirk thinks). I hope this long-winded, overly scholastic, dissection is fun for you...that's why you're here, right?

]>

Ben
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: December 07, 2014 08:17
As to Dirk's suggested translation...Thanks!
(no offense to Malinornë, I may yet choose that solution)

So: "Nëa lúmessë mellentë"
“once, at one time” (in the past) + "time" (locative) + ? (can't find that one)

When does repeating words that convey "time" become redundant (and thus an argument for Malinornë's approach)?

What do you think of these other possible vocabularies?...
ONCE: valdëa (of moment, important)

UPON: mi (within); yá or írë (when); yassë (in which). This whole prepositional thing is maybe skippable as intrinsic in the other word choices?

TIME: lú (occasion, a time); lúmissen (at the times); randa (era, cycle, age); talumë (then, at the that time)

Obviously, very many good options for time, era, "back then" etc. And "Once " and "Time" are very similar in their root concepts anyway. As I mentioned to Malinornë above, I'm attracted to "randa" conceptually since it conveys an "age". The question would be how to put these together properly, meaningfully, poetically, without being too redundant or cheesily wordy?

"írë néya valdëa randa..." or "írë néya randa valdëa..."

"néya randa..."

"írë talumë randa..."

"írë talumë randa valdëa..."

Am I on to something? Or way off?
Should the syntax be different?
Do you stick to your original suggestion?

And, as one last variable. I asked this same question of another scholar of Elven (known in these circles) and he suggested: "yalúmessë" initially, then "haira randassë" as "In a remote age". What do you think of that option?

Sorry for being complicated?
Again, I hope this is fun for all involved.

Ben



StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: December 07, 2014 08:39
I'm going to roll with this second part...because I'm having fun.

"Anentë cuivë valimbë oialë"

"Was + they" (they were) + "awakening" (...to?) + "happy" (I don't get the bë part) + "everlasting, eternal, forever" (perfect).

I like it!
Obviously here you are using Quenya grammar/syntax that is beyond me. Thanks! That's the help I need.

Just to double-check some other vocabulary choices, these are the possible options I found:

HAPPILY: valin (happy (obsolete?)) valima or valar (happy ones); alassë or *alassëa (joyful, joyous)

EVER: oio (endless period); oira (eternal); oia or vorima (everlasting age); oirë or oialë (everlastingly, forever (adv.); tennoio or oia (everlastingly); illumë (always); oi, voro, vor (continually)

AFTER: tenna (until); telu (end of the world);

So:
"...valima vorima tenna telu"

"...alassë oira telu"

"...alassë illumë oio"

Obviously I'm dictionary hunting and pecking here.

The other scholar I spoke of in my previous message offered: "mi alasse oi epeta"
dirk_math
Quenya Workbook Mentor
Posts: 622
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: December 08, 2014 03:01
Valimbë is the adverb of valin (valin + ve = valimbë).
And mellentë = they loved (mellë is the past tense of mel-).

And evidently there are many more possibilities than the ones I gave.

A few remarks:
- 'live happily' requires happily to take the form of an adverb, so valimavë.
- vorima is an adjective so it cannot be used in the way you do (you might use it as a noun but then it would mean 'an everlasting person or thing').
- alassë is a noun so 'in joy' would be 'mi alassë' or 'with joy' alassenen (of course it might be that alassë is also correct as a locative).
- 'end of the world' is ambarmetta.
- illumë is an adverb so it cannot be placed before a noun like oio.

In your other post: randa is a noun so it cannot be used in the nominative without a verb.

When choosing words you really should try to respect the grammatical category it belongs to: adjectives belong with nouns, adverbs with verbs.


Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
akrouk
Council Member
Posts: 1
Send Message
Post
on: January 02, 2015 03:58
I've recently started learning, and I had a question about the combination of the consonants of hy. As someone that speaks English and currently taking Spanish courses, I find understanding hy hard, especially how to pronounce -ich. (Some of the German and other languages are troubling for me)
dirk_math
Quenya Workbook Mentor
Posts: 622
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: January 02, 2015 11:11
As you are studying Spanish, I suppose you know how to pronounce Mexico in Spanish. Well it's the Spanish pronunciation of this x you need:
hy = Spanish x followed by a short y
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: April 19, 2015 05:02
Hello Dirk, et al,

Sorry for the long delay since my last post. I hope you did not feel like I took your input and ran off ungrateful. Rather, I've been preoccupied by the real world; romance and fairytale has taken back burner (damn). Now however, I am ready to rekindle the magic and get back to this project.

I appreciate your input and opinion on all of this. And I apologize for the confusion over grammatical "category" (adj, adv, etc) as you mention above. I definitely understand the differences, and I also assume that Quenya (like English) has the ability to change some words from one to the other depending on suffix (or?)...at least in some cases? E.G. happy vs happily. But perhaps not always? This is definitely one area I need your help.

(Can you comment on your use of Valimbë vs Valimavë in your post above?)

I think confused you a bit with my intentions. I gave some extra context in what I wanted translated, in an attempt help define singular vs plural, etc. Sorry. But what I'm actually after is more-simply:

"Once upon a time...Happily ever after"

So, if I dissect/distill the translations you offered, I believe that it would be:

"Nëa lúmessë…Valimbë oialë"

Would you feel confident in this direct use?

On second thought, would you change anything for accuracy? Or poetic creativity?
For example, (just to beat a dead horse), could "randa" be used for era if it had a preposition meaning "in" or "during"? E.G. "Nea mi randa…" I do like the idea that, rather than just some moment in time, it's a moment in a past great era, or all-of-time.

I do like your suggestion of "ambarmetta". (I misread that as "telu", thanks for the catch.) I suppose that whether the "end of the world" is longer or shorter than "eternal/forever" is open to poetic interpretation. So, "…Valimbë ambarmetta" ?

I also must admit, that I'm recently more-tempted by Malinornë's argument for "yalúmessë". It would definitely be an easy and safe choice. And could be looked-up by a non-quenya speaker with immediate satisfaction. So:

"Yalúmessë…Valimbë oialë" ?


I'm interested in your final opinion on any of these variations. And for anyone else with disagreement, corrections, clarifications, or suggestions to say so now (before this is literally cast in gold).

The next step is to convert this to Tengwar. I have several fonts installed, but I'm wary about the keystrokes. Do you feel like helping me with this too? I'd be grateful.

Thanks,
Ben


dirk_math
Quenya Workbook Mentor
Posts: 622
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: April 21, 2015 05:43
Valimavë is the adverb of valima, valimbë is the adverb of valin.
Both mean 'happy'.

'In/during an era' would be randassë.

To type correct tengwar using the Dan Smith fonts, you best use a programme like Yatt or tengscribe.
Otherwise when you prefer unicode, there is a thread on this forum where I explain how these can be used.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: April 22, 2015 12:51
Thanks Dirk,

So I could choose Valimavë or Valimbë equally, depending on what looks better in Tengwar? Great.

For translation to Tengwar, I used http://3rin.gs/tengwar. It's pretty cool because I can copy the result (they're not just bitmapped art) and paste the text/keystrokes into any application to look at it different Tengwar fonts I have installed.

Would you look at http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/TwistedRoot_bucket/Tengwar%20test%202.png and tell me what you think?

Thanks again for all your help!
dirk_math
Quenya Workbook Mentor
Posts: 622
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: April 22, 2015 02:03
Yes, that's correct. Only in the 2nd line you somehow dropped the final -e.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
StinkBeard
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Post
on: April 22, 2015 02:26
Good Catch! Obviously, you know what you're looking for.

Thanks again for everything. I think I'm going to go with "Yalúmessë...Valimbë oialë" unless I run into something during the actual ring design that makes me want different looking letter-forms. "...Valimavë Randassë" looks pretty good too.

Just to let you know, I am a professional graphic designer by trade. While my main job has noting to do with this kind of fun stuff (rather, other completely different fun stuff), I would be happy to assist you, or others on this site, if they ever need Elfin-related custom graphics. I've learned a lot already about implementing Tengwar, and would be happy to assist people with vector modification of Tengwar to help fit a particular application, format, shape, etc....be it file formats, or modification to art for whatever reason. Of course, I'll forever need an Elfin linguist to make sure the content is correct before I get all graphicy. But let me know if I can ever help you out.

Thanks,
Ben

Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email