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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 15, 2014 09:49
Interesting theory, Elfie, but don't you think Elrond and Gandalf would have been more drawn to it, if that were the case? The ring sat on a pedestal right in front of Elrond for sometime, and he showed no signs of being drawn to it...that I noticed. Gandalf, on the other hand, was obviously drawn to the ring, but even he didn't turn into a green monster...he had quite a bit more self control. So...I'm really not sure.

I'd be happy to hear it!
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
findemaxam48
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on: December 15, 2014 04:18
From Page One:


FOTR Movie Marathon: Portrayal of The Characters

1. Do the characters change (perspective etc) during the movie? If so, in what way? Which characters are flat and which are dynamic?
2. Which character’s qualities do you most need?

FOTR Movie Marathon: The Themes

1. What aspect of the film helped most in taking you to Middle Earth?
2. What was the most important theme?
3. The spirit of Tom Bombadil is present in the film. Discuss

FOTR Movie Marathon: The Story

1. Why didn’t the Nazgul know that the hobbits were under the treeroot?
2. How would the story have turned out if Faramir had gone to Imladris instead of Boromir?
3. What is the purpose of Gandalf’s death?

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
tarcolan
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on: December 19, 2014 11:02
I think Boromir changes the most, although he starts off a bit too earnest and desperate. This is a directorial fault. He's already too affected by the Ring which doesn't leave enough room for Sean Bean to explore the character.

The most important theme was shown well, especially by Merry's impulsive decision to help Frodo and Sam. Friendship.
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 19, 2014 02:11
I agree, tarc. It's cool, too, after seeing the flash back moment in TTT, as many of us have, now, to see how much Boromir changes in between that time of his life and his death, instead of just looking at it in the order the movie lays out. He definitely turns into quite a different person. (Though he's awesome all the way through. )

Friendship is definitely the most important theme, and also why I like FotR best of all the movies.
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
ccgaylord
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on: December 19, 2014 05:13
ElfwithAtatude: I'd like to hear your theory on Gandalf's death!
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 19, 2014 11:08
Okay so here's my theory on Gandalf's death is this: (This is not based on the book, but what I've learned on Tolkien from his biography.) Okay, Tolien was a a Catholic, so his reason for Gandalf's death was to show a pictures of how Jesus sacrificed himself to save each person from our sin, and He's going to come back clothed in white majesty riding a white horse. So he used Gandalf as his picture much as C.S. Lewis used Aslan for his picture of Jesus. There are also many other picture of Jesus through out the LotR trilogy.
Now that's my theory, and its also what I believe. I am a Christian, and I'm not trying to force anything on anyone this is simply what I believe.

Also this may seem random, but has anyone else noticed the elf walking in the backdrop when Gandalf and Elrond are talking in Rivendell?? He just walks across the backdrop and then just walks back.

[Edited on 12/21/2014 by tarcolan]
Image "We all change when you think about it. We're all different people all through out our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." -- The 11th Doctor
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 20, 2014 09:40
That's a possibility, Elfie, but it doesn't seem to fit what Tolkien said about himself...namely, that he very much disliked allegory. I hear that he was very adamant that LotR was in no way allegorical.

What??? Um...no. That sounds weird...
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
tarcolan
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on: December 20, 2014 12:01
OSFA is right though, there is nothing overtly allegorical about the story. Despite Tolkien's dislike of allegory he was not averse to using it, specifically in 'Leaf By Niggle'. Just my opinion.

If you watch the Appendix discs of the extended edition you'll see that they did a library of shots of Elves walking around so they could slot them in to the background. Most of them weren't even real.

[Edited on 12/21/2014 by tarcolan]
findemaxam48
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on: December 20, 2014 05:08
I saw that on the Appendix discs.

I think that tarc is right. Tolkien did say that he wrote LotR because of the story and not because of the allegorical content it may bring. But you can see how some of it could be an allegory, especially for Biblical concepts.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 20, 2014 05:47
It's just a theory, and I meant no offense to anyone it's simply what I think. True he said he didn't like allegory, but the similarities can't be denied.

No I haven't seen the appendix, I haven't had time to watch 'em.
Image "We all change when you think about it. We're all different people all through out our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." -- The 11th Doctor
findemaxam48
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on: December 20, 2014 05:59
No offense for me here, EwA. It is a good theory, and I noticed it myself the first time I watched LotR. I was almost twelve, I think. My sister, though, who is nearly that age, and is reading the books, says that she can't find the religious parallels at all. But it is the first time she is reading through, so we will see.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 20, 2014 10:48
I also have another theory!!! What if Tolkien just wanted to make Gandalf die in FotR just cause he wanted too???
Image "We all change when you think about it. We're all different people all through out our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." -- The 11th Doctor
PSK
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on: December 21, 2014 01:58
EwA, your parallel between Gandlaf and Jesus was not a bad one. I think the necessity of Gandalf's death is purely because, with Gandalf, everything is just too easy. There does not seem like any real danger, because he can protect them. I think it enhances the story in this way, we can relate to the plight of the characters and they have to defend themselves (without any wizardry), and seem more normal in a way.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 22, 2014 01:15
No offence here, either, EwA. I think there is definitely a parallel, I just don't think that it's very likely that Tolkien wrote it that way on purpose for the parallel, if that makes sense.

Those are both very good theories. xD
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
findemaxam48
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on: December 22, 2014 06:31
Coming from a writer's standpoint, killing off character's is a very emotional reader/writer experience. So perhaps he did so to bring emotions up to the surface.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 22, 2014 08:23
Well, if that's what he was trying to accomplish then he sure did it!!
Image "We all change when you think about it. We're all different people all through out our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." -- The 11th Doctor
Nifredil
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on: December 23, 2014 02:54
When a major character dies, it is always a turning point in a story. Sometimes writers just feel they have to kill a character to allow for the growth and development of the others. And, in this case even the killed one experienced some evolvement!
we see that Tolkien's main interest when writing stories was to follow the evolution of each of his characters, to investigate how events form a person. He did that time and time again. So I see Gandalf there stuck on his level, but with a great deal of potential (seeing how Tolkien himself has said that of all the Wizards only Gandalf remained true to the original purpose and calling).
So, the bottom line is: the reasons were plenty, so Gandalf had to die! And come back, thanks be to God! (or Eru, or Iluvatar in that world)
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ccgaylord
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on: December 23, 2014 09:08
ElfwithAtatude: I think your theory is a good one. Yeah, Tolkien didn't like allegory (or so I've heard) but using parallels is different, imo.

Your theory gave me an idea for another possible reason for Gandalf's death and "resurrection": to give readers a ray of hope in an otherwise rather dark story. TTT is pretty dark and RotK is even darker, so when Gandalf shows up it's a very happy moment for readers and when he is running around in RotK it gives readers/viewers hope that the story can still have a good ending. Make sense?
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 23, 2014 09:31
Wow...there just seem to be endless reasons why he might have made Gandalf die! Whatever the reasons, though, let me just say, I'm really, really glad he did.
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
PSK
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on: December 24, 2014 04:08
Sounds kinda sadistic

I think the best theory so far is the growth and expansion of other characters. Another thing I just thought of is that Aragorn is eclipsed in power and majesty by Gandalf. Could killing off Gandalf be a way to bring Aragorn to the forefront and make his qualities a leader come out so that he has a good claim to the throne of Gondor? In FotR he doesn't really do anything extra special and only really shines once Gandlaf is out of the picture (eg Helm's Deep, even though Gandalf again steals his glory)
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Eruwestiel_Evensong
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on: December 26, 2014 09:57
I agree with PSK. Aragorn needed to be forced to lead to show him that he could lead. It was his "nudge out the door" moment I think.

Also, when the Fellowship arrives in Lothlórien we see another possible answer. Galadriel tells them that Gandalf never did anything without reason. Part of that could be the aforementioned idea about Aragorn. I believe it may also have been so he could become more powerful himself. Fighting the Balrog could have been his trial to prove himself and basically take the place of Saruman. In his return he states "I am Saruman. Or rather, Saruman as he should have been." This is just a theory.
"And I dreamed of seas and ships, and of waves crashing on the shore in the twilight of the world..." ~Song, member of the Realm of Ulmo
tarcolan
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on: December 27, 2014 11:49
The literary necessity of Gandalf's death is pretty clear, to introduce a bit of jeopardy. That's the external reason but internally we have to ask what would have happened if they had all just run out of Moria. Could the Balrog have followed? Most certainly, but would it? Perhaps all the way to Lothlorien?
findemaxam48
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on: December 27, 2014 01:39
I think that the Balrog would have indeed kept up with the chase. Then Lothlorien could have been destroyed, which in turn takes away all that occurred there.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: January 03, 2015 10:33
And seeing that, in movie verse, it is Galadriel that gives Elrond the nudge to send elves to Helmsdeep, the effects could have been even more disastrous. Helmsdeep could have fallen, and Rohan defeated.
Image"The Corrupteds are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Cenor
findemaxam48
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on: January 08, 2015 01:48
Very true, OneSize. I hadn't realized that.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
PSK
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on: January 11, 2015 05:47
Just thinking, if Gandalf had not destroyed the Balrog, surely Sauron would have been able to bring it to his side. After all he was Morgoths right-hand man when Morgoth created the Balrogs. This would have been catastrophic, especially if the Balrog had turned up at a difficult moment. Therefore the death of Gandalf was necessary. Without it Sauron could have triumphed. In short the Balrog would have gone further than keeping up the chase. It would have fought for Sauron.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
findemaxam48
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on: January 19, 2015 02:13
Sauron would have loved to have a Balrog. (who wouldn't?) it could have been used any number of times, but the battle outside of the BlackGate comes to mind.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
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