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findemaxam48
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Post LotR Movie Marathon- TTT Questions for Discussion
on: December 12, 2014 03:26
Questions and discussion for The Two Towers Movie Watchathon

Emotions and Behavior

1-Why is Grima crying in the balcony scene?
2-Should we feel sympathy for Gollum?
3-How do Merry and Pippin change from the Fellowship of the Ring to The Two Towers?

Acting and Filming

1-Best acted scene?
2- Best portrayal of a character?
3- Changes to book-good and bad?
4-Which musical theme captured the essence of a scene?
5-What was the most effective on location scene?

Personal Reflection

1-Which character’s qualities do you most need?
2- Most important theme?

[Edited on 12/22/2014 by tarcolan]
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Lindarielwen
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on: December 15, 2014 12:11
Okay time for The Two Towers discussion.

Grima was crying? I did not notice. I remember Saruman talking to Grima in a demeaning manner but I did not see Grima crying. I think he was wiping blood off his lip.

Okay if he was crying while talking to Saruaman, I think it would be because he was betraying Theoden by telling Saruman about the flaw in Helm's Deep.
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PSK
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on: December 15, 2014 01:01
Although Grima does not like Saruman, do you think that he has any empathy for Theoden? I think he is too selfish to care.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Eruwestiel_Evensong
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on: December 15, 2014 01:45
It has been a bit since I last saw the movie, but I do think Grima at least had a tear trickle down his cheek. I always had the impression that he finally realized what he had done when he saw the orc hoards from the balcony. Even if he had no love for his king, I can't help but feel that he regretted what he had done when he saw the destruction about to be unleashed on his homeland.
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findemaxam48
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on: December 15, 2014 04:15
I saw a tear. I do believe he was crying because he saw how much destruction was about to come to Rohan, and partially, from his hand. I agree with all of you, though, it could have been any number of things.

As for Merry and Pippin, I think that they got a really good taste for what the world is like outside of the Shire. They are young, so it would have been a system shock. Plus, capture by the Orcs. Who would want to deal with that?
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Nifredil
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on: December 16, 2014 07:02
Hello all!

I hope it's all right if I just jump in the discussion.

Regarding Grima's tear - I don't believe he was sorry in any way. People cry when emotions get the better of them, and I think he was overwhelmed by the sheer size of the army.

Merry and Pippin leave the Shire for an adventure having little ideas what it would really be about - as opposed to Frodo and Sam - and they are suddenly way over their heads. They change, yes, They grow up.

My personal happy moment I like to come back to is the moment the elves arrive to Helm's Deep: that perfect coordination, those smooth moves... And my personal moment of hurt is when Haldir is killed, and he looks around and sees all those dead elves.... That somehow got to me, and made me feel like it was real, the battle, the struggle, the death in Middle-earth.

[Edited on 12/16/2014 by Nifredil]
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findemaxam48
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on: December 16, 2014 01:23
Yes! Nif, I agree! I was going to edit my post and say that every time I watch Haldir die, I start crying. Especially since he was not suppost to die.
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Lynk
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on: December 18, 2014 01:10
Nifredil said:Hello all!



Regarding Grima's tear - I don't believe he was sorry in any way. People cry when emotions get the better of them, and I think he was overwhelmed by the sheer size of the army.


[Edited on 12/16/2014 by Nifredil]


Supposing you are right, why would then*SPOILER* Grima kill Saruman in the next part of the story? (Could be a good question for the ROTK Discussion) If he didn't care about what had happened he wouldn't have had this look in the eyes before he stabbed the wizard.

According to Haldir's death though, I just have to agree with you. This movie-making move really reaches the core of oneself giving you insight into the tragedy that is the war of the ring.
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PSK
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on: December 18, 2014 11:02
I think the simple answer to that is that Saruman was not kind to him. It is always the case that villain's henchmen think they will be richly rewarded but are let down. (First example that came into my head is Snape or Peter Pettigrew in Harry Potter. Sorry!) Therefore he is angry more than sad for Rohan.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Lindarielwen
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on: December 18, 2014 11:59
Seems like Grima was the topic of conversation for TTT.

How many people said they were going to participate? I do not think more than half of them have joined in the discussion.

Tomorrow (Friday) we start to watch Return of the King.
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findemaxam48
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on: December 18, 2014 04:19
Unfortunately, there are not enough questions to go off of for RotK. It will be a general discussion.
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 18, 2014 10:48
I think Grima could have been slightly....I don't the word for it but, I think he could have felt some remorse.(that's the word I was looking for!!) Just because he is still a human, even though he may lack a heart, it still probably got to him, what he'd done.

As for when Haldir dies, I cry every single time that's probably the best acted scene, also with Aragorn kicking the orc helmet down the hill and screaming. For some reason that always gets me and it becomes much more....real.
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Nifredil
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on: December 19, 2014 04:38
Regarding the changes to book - the only one that really bothered me was Faramir deciding to take the Ring to Gondor, instead of letting the hobbits go. It might be explained by him trying to do whatever it took to prove himself to his father. It goes so against the character of Faramir Tolkien had created! I had fallen in love with Faramir while reading the book, and was utterly disappointed with this twist in the plot and the character.
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Lindarielwen
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on: December 19, 2014 07:23
ElfwithAtatude, do you have the extended of TTT and if yes, have you watched any of *the making of* stuff?

[Edited on 12/19/2014 by Lindarielwen]
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ccgaylord
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on: December 19, 2014 10:55
We just got around to watching the second half last night. I never noticed that Grima was crying before so I was watching for it this time. I agree with those who think it was from remorse. In the next movie he looks like he wants to go back to Theoden's side again, so perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that?

And Merry and Pippin grow much more mature through this movie in preparation for their moments of glory in RotK.

Should we feel sympathy for Gollum? Well, he never truly repents. But I still feel sorry for him because he almost reforms.
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 19, 2014 02:31
About Grima, my sisters and I were watching TTT, and my sis suggested another idea of why he might have been crying: because Saruman was going to kill Eowyn. She said it mainly in jest, but it might be a possibility. And I also think that Grima was a little remorseful because Rohan was his country, once.

Heheh...I always laugh when Aragorn kicks the orc helmet... (Of course, I do know the BTS story about it.) However, Haldir's scene does make me cry. And it means a lot that a character who just totally freaked me out every time he appeared up until that moment could make me love him that much, just by dying. Very well done, Haldir.

Nif, I think we were going to stay away from book vs. movie discussions during the marathon, but I do agree with you that movie!Faramir was very different, in a negative way, from book!Faramir. It broke my heart when I watched that part of TTT the first time. I was like, "What are you doing to my hero????".

Cc, I always like to say that, in the movie, if Faramir hadn't been a beast to Gollum, there would still have been hope that he could have reformed.
Aside from that, even, we should still have pity for him. One of my favourite things about TTT is how they drum up the similarities between Gollum/Smeagol and Frodo...Frodo is becoming like him. This is shown in a multitude of ways, even up to the point where Frodo almost kills Sam over the ring, as Smeagol killed Deagol. The ring did this to him. I can't help but pity anyone who ever came in contact with the ring (even up to Sauron, but for other reasons...lol).

[Edited on 12/19/2014 by OneSizeFitsAll]
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findemaxam48
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on: December 20, 2014 06:01
That is correct. This is a celebration of the films, but it is okay if you want to discuss comparisons elsewhere on the site.

Yes. We should have sympathy for Gollum, I think. He could not help what the Ring did to him. Heck, if Frodo had kept the Ring, he could have been another Gollum, if given the time. OneSize, I noticed that as well, for the first time this viewing.


We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
tarcolan
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on: December 22, 2014 09:55
Movies are very different things to books. Tolkien had good reason for making Faramir the only one who was not tempted by the Ring, not even the thought of it. This is to do with the true blood of Númenor. The film-makers also had very good reasons for changing Faramir, but he still wasn't tempted to take it as Boromir was, it was more about pleasing his father.

Ooh, I forgot. Best characterisation was... Gollum.

[Edited on 12/22/2014 by tarcolan]
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 22, 2014 01:23
Maxie, I had noticed a little of the Frodo/Gollum parallels before, but for this was the first time that I noticed a lot of the more subtle ones...some of the faces Frodo makes, for instance. The moment when Frodo was about to kill Sam, I was looking at his face, and was like "Oh my gosh...he looks like Gollum!" This marathon was awesome for teaching me to pay closer attention to what's going on.

Haha...yes. Gollum was definitely the best characterisation.
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findemaxam48
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on: December 22, 2014 06:27
I think it is a tie between Theoden and Gollum for this one. also, did anyone else shed tears when Theoden said, "No parent should have to bury their child?"
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
PSK
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on: December 23, 2014 03:53
No, but that is because I usually only get emotional about characters who you really think you know, so usually only the main two or three.

I agree that Gollum is the best characterisation. Well done Andy Serkis! I love Theoden as a character but I don't think he is that great in the films unfortunately. It's not that he is bad, but he just isn't as well portrayed as others.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 23, 2014 09:24
I shed tears. I love Theoden, and I love Theodred, esp. in the book, so that is a very emotional point in the movie, for me.

I thought Bernard Hill did a really good job on Theoden, myself. I didn't think he wasn't the very best characterisation, but still quite good. And he was a very lovable and understandable character. He had his faults and weaknesses, and yet he was still a man you could look up to and respect.
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findemaxam48
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on: December 27, 2014 01:43
I thought that theoden was one of the best. It was hard for me to imagine Theoden in the book, whoich made it difficult for me to envision Theodred, Eomer, and Eowyn. So the clarity and life that Bernard Hill brought the Rohan King was incredible for me. Also, I think Theoden is one of the first men to really shed some light on the humanity and issues of war: he didn't want to risk open war, even though, as Aragorn said, it was there. He then emptied his city and fought Orcs on the countryside, sending those who couldn't fight ahead of him. And then, at Helm's Deep, he questions his people's faith in him, even as little children prepare to fight and the women go into hiding. It was truly heart breaking.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
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