Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » Elven Culture and the Language...
Author Topic:
akiditarod
Council Member
Posts: 21
Send Message
Avatar
Post Elven Culture and the Language...
on: January 22, 2015 08:18
I have wondered about a few things that I would really appreciate some insight on;

1. Does anyone believe that Elves may name prominent objects/relics in their society, like Yggdrasil is named in Norse Mythology? Would they name statues or trees like the swords of Middle Earth are named? I know that swords are named accordingly, a lot of times because of their prowess in battle, but I'm not sure if weapons and other objects are too different to be both given a title.

2. If Elves (or any other races, for that matter) named relics or natural creations they deem sacred, important, etc., what exactly must go into naming something like that? Anduril was once Narsil, and both names have extreme significance, so if one were to, say, name a tree something very fitting, there would surely need to be a story behind it, right? Or is it possible to name objects simply because they exist there and could be given one?

Thanks so, so much in advance to anyone who can help!
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: January 26, 2015 01:15
One of the names (in Quenya, the "Elven-Latin" ) of the Elves for themselves is "Quendi," which is translated "speakers". They were the first beings originating in Arda to have language, and probably taught all others (certainly including the Ents, including Fangorn / Treebeard) speech (except for the Black Speech devised by Sauron in the Third Age). So I would very much assume that they gave names to (almost) everything east of Valinor. They had unknown millennia to do this between their awakening and that of men at the rising of the sun, last fruit of the second of the Two Trees of Valinor, Laurelin the Golden.
As for a specific naming, Fëanor named Melkor the evil Vala "Morgoth", "dark enemy", the name by which his enemies referred to him from then on.

[Edited on 01/26/2015 by Gandolorin]
Image
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: January 26, 2015 04:21
Checking my memory quickly I think most successful weapons had personal names, not just swords; spears, maces, etc. and the chain Angaenor with which Morgoth was bound. I can't remember off hand whether any other everyday objects had names. I'll have to put my mind to it.
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: January 27, 2015 01:17
At least three ships were also given names that I can remember offhand (and with a little help from my JRRT guidebooks):

Tuor's ship Eärrámë (Quenya "sea-wing" ), with which he and his wife Idril sailed into the West, never to return thus becoming the objects of some speculation;

Vingilot (Quenya "foam-flower" ), the ship of Eärendil (Tuor and Idril's son), with which he and his wife Elwing sailed to Valinor (with the help of the Silmaril taken from Morgoth by Beren and Lúthien) at the end of the First Age, gaining the mercy of the Valar for the peoples of Beleriand, which led to the Great War and Morgoth's utter defeat;

Alcarondas, (uncertain if Adûnaic or Quenya) "also called Castle of the Sea," the flagship of Ar-Pharazôn in his disastrous attack on Valinor.

Some other Númenórean ships may also have had names, especially those of (Tar-) Aldarion.

[Edited on 01/27/2015 by Gandolorin]
Image
Elthir
Council Member
Posts: 433
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: January 28, 2015 03:01
Would they name statues or trees like the swords of Middle Earth are named?

Given that you brought up the tree Yggdrasil I'll concentrate on the Two Trees of Valinor. Also "statues" in a sense, in Gondolin, or images anyway...

"Telperion the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelóte, and many other names; but Laurelin the other was, and Malinalda, and Culúrien, and many names in song beside."

So there seems to be many names, and the reader doesn't know them all. And with respect to images: in the courts of Turgon in Gondolin stood images of the Trees of old...

".... which Turgon himself wrought with elven-craft; and the Tree which he made of gold was named Glingal, and the tree whose flowers he made of silver was named Belthil."

I think the Elves delighted in naming... or I think Tolkien did, anyway

[Edited on 01/29/2015 by Elthir]
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: January 29, 2015 01:52
Naming is a fundamental part of what it is to be human. Knowing a name gives us possession and power over that thing, or person. It is said to be unwise to tell someone your true name for this reason, but these days we don't really have such names. Ursula K. leGuin understood it in the 'Earthsea' trilogy, though if Tolkien did it is not obvious. The Dwarves of course have there secret language and, I assume, true names. That's the only example I can think of. Ironically it is in the film that we see it, when Frodo tells Gollum his true name.

The naming of objects has little of the power it used to now. People might give their car or even their computer a name, but there is none of the ancient purpose left in this. Perhaps now in the age of mass production possessions themselves have lost any meaning. In older times we could trace the history of every thing we owned, it would have been far more special and unique. It would have been more worthy of a name. In many cultures was the ritual act of sacrifice. The Aleut people would meet together and bring their most treasured possession to throw in to the fire. Anglo Saxons would cast their swords into the water as an offering to the gods. Such actions would be meaningless now, when it is so easy to go and buy an identical one. We know nothing of their history, they may as well have just sprung in to being in the shop. And we feel nothing when it comes to throwing them away. Objects these days have no soul.

[Edited on 01/29/2015 by tarcolan]
Hangman Helper program
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: January 30, 2015 02:01
tarcolan said:... Knowing a name gives us possession and power over that thing, or person...

just think of the fairy tale Rumplestiltskin ...
Image
akiditarod
Council Member
Posts: 21
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: January 30, 2015 04:14
Wow, thank you all SO much for all of the very useful information! Such beautiful things to learn from here. I was definitely thinking about some of these things, but certainly not in such detail, so bless you for clearing it up for me! You guys are wonderful!
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email