Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Languages » Sindarin Discussion » Question on the word "Balrog"
Author Topic:
Varyalener
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Post Question on the word "Balrog"
on: March 08, 2015 05:09
In lesson #10 (Intensifiers) of the Workbook is written that the word Balrog "Power-Demon" (stem BAL) contains graug (an intensive form of raug "terrible creature, demon" ), which is thus lenited (as it is the second element of a compound), becoming 'raug, and appearing as -rog: Balrog. Ok. But could not Balrog just be the word raug glued to the primitive stem BAL (hence, BAL + raug = Balrog)?

I have another question (though this is not exactly the point here): why the lenited form 'raug (or maybe the unintensified word raug?) becomes -rog in the end of Balrog? I know this occurs for phonological reasons (it seems that diphtongs are not allowed in the end of words with two or more syllables, thus they are shortened in some way, correct?). What i want to know here is: what is the process?

[Edited on 03/09/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
Council Member
Posts: 557
Send Message
Post
on: March 10, 2015 02:44
In answer to the first question - yes.
raug (N. rhaug) n. a powerful, hostile and terrible creature, a demon ◇ Ety/384, S/436, WJ/415
So that needs updating...

The second question of au -> o (au can also become a if it's in the first half of a word - Naur+gwain -> Narwain = January) - for this we need to look at some of the history of Sindarin and how plurals have changed their formation over time, as au has something of a complicated background!

Caun (prince) -> Conin (princes)- considered irregular
Rodon (Vala, power) -> Rodyn (irregular, becomes it comes from an original Raudon)
Nogoth (Dwarf) comes from older Naugoth as its original plural was Noegyth (later plural Negyth as this type of OE -> E, see also Arnoediad -> Arnediad).

Basically the general rule is that AU -> O, but there are two examples, Narwain and Iarwain (Iaur+gwain) where AU -> A, and they're both where the AU is in the first syllable of a polysyllable word.
Varyalener
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Post
on: March 11, 2015 04:32
Thank you!

I have just thought about Naug "Dwarf" > pl. Noeg "Dwarves". In this case, both au and oe ramain because this is a 1-syllable word? And what about Naugrim? Why is it not Nogrim or Nagrim instead?

[Edited on 03/11/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
Council Member
Posts: 557
Send Message
Post
on: March 12, 2015 02:42
Plural mutation and compound word mutation aren't the same thing. Plural mutation is also known as I-mutation, as it's also seen in I-stem verbs.

AU in a one syllable word in a plural will become an OE. Naur -> Noer, Naug -> Noeg etc.

AU in compound mutation will become an O or an A, simply because it's following a different set of rules.

The 'host' suffix -rim doesn't apply mutation at all to a word, it simply attaches to the end.

Gwathui (shadowy) -> Gwathuirim (Dunlendings)
Forod (north) -> Forodrim (Northern folk of Forochel)
Edhel -> Edhellim (Elves - only difference here is because the word ends with an 'l' the 'r' disappears and becomes an 'l')

[Edited on 03/12/2015 by Galadivren]
Varyalener
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Post
on: March 12, 2015 04:22
I have seen laegeldrim "green elves" in Dragonflame (and somewhere in Ardalambion). Is this a valid sindarin word or not? I'm asking this because we have laegrim and it seems to me that laegeldrim is an earlier form in the external development of sindarin and is not to be considered. If it was (or perhaps actually is) a valid sindarin word, should it read laegellim instead?

[Edited on 03/12/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
Council Member
Posts: 557
Send Message
Post
on: March 13, 2015 04:41
The forum deleted my earlier reply, so I shall try and rewrite it as it was.

Laegeldrim is indeed attested, it's in War of the Jewels:
Laegel pl. Laegil, class plural Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim.

It's clearly an older word as Laeg was replaced by Calen, and of the two options for class plural I would use Laegrim. I would probably also be tempted to 'update' it for more modern Third Age Sindarin as Laegellim yes.
Varyalener
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Post
on: March 13, 2015 08:05
So let me see if i understood correctly. Laegeldrim is an older class plural form compared to laegrim, so the second is to be preferred. But in case someone really wants to use laegeldrim, then he/she must update the word to Laegellim for it to fit the Third Age LoTR-style Sindarin (I would not use this word, anyway). Is it correct?

But... since laeg was replaced by calen as the word for "green" (so I believe it is not a valid word anymore), should all the words that contain laeg be replaced by words containing calen? Hence, laegel, laegil, laegrim (can't remember more words) should be replaced by calenel, celenil, calellim (if theses forms are all correct)? If so, the same should go also for the name of Legolas (laeg + prefix go- + lass).

I don't know if I should have created a new topic for this question, since the thread is "going out of the trail"...

[Edited on 03/13/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Galadivren
Council Member
Posts: 557
Send Message
Post
on: March 13, 2015 07:47
should all the words that contain laeg be replaced by words containing calen?


No, no, definitely not!
By replaced, I mean in general conversation, in the same way Gil replaced El. We wouldn't dream of changing the names of Elrond and his sons to Gilrond, Gilladan and Gilrohir! So in a conversation, you would ask for 'i barf galen', not 'i barf laeg', but you wouldn't change poor Legolas' name.

To use an English example - there are many hundreds of pubs called The Compleat Angler. Compleat is entirely archaic, but we wouldn't replace it with Complete, nor would we change half the towns in England that contain the archaic word Burg to Town. (Edinton? I think not )

Laegel, Laegrim etc. are also the only attested word we have to describe the Green Elves as a people. The Elves of today would know it was an old word, but it's no different to an English person reciting their wedding vows that contain 'hath' etc.
Varyalener
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Post
on: March 14, 2015 11:03 
should all the words that contain laeg be replaced by words containing calen?


I asked that because I thought laeg was replaced by calen in the external development of sindarin (I mean, as Tolkien divised it, outside LoTR universe), and not in the internal development (inside the LoTR universe). From that perspective, laeg wouldn't have even existed in the history of sindarin as the language developed from primitive elvish to the Third Age grey-elven.

But I understood what you said. Since laeg was replaced by calen at some point in the development of Sindarin inside Tolkien's mythology, by the Third Age it was an archaic word (that once had been the common word for "green" ), existing only in proper names and in words like laegrim (which anyway is a name by which the silvan-elves were collectively known). Of course, it would be a crazy thing to replace laeg with calen in every word it appears.


Thank you again! I really appreciated all your help!

[Edited on 03/15/2015 by Varyalener]
Lindanen lassis, laurië lassis. Ar tás altaner laurië lassi.
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email