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cirdaneth
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Post What Last Ship?
on: April 24, 2015 04:32
So … when was the 'last ship' ? Who said so and were they right?
Elthir
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on: April 26, 2015 12:44
I'm not sure I understand the question fully...

... but anyway, according to the text Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age the "last ship" mentioned by Cirdan is the White Ship that Elrond, Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel and others took into the West.

So here at least, Cirdan's "last ship" is not literally the last according to the fictional author of this text.

That said, Tolkien himself never published this text and we know very little about its external history. The biggest problem for me is that we don't know if Tolkien thought it was ready for print "as is". My guess would be "I doubt it" with respect to every detail, but that doesn't really help much of course.

Anyway if this connection is made, perhaps it could be carried over to explain Cirdan's "last ship" reference published by JRRT in 1955 (Appendix B)...

... if not (if perhaps Tolkien meant to revise OTROP here) then the waters muddy


A further possibility is that Of The Rings Of Power was supposed to contain seeming contradictions, or at least possibly misleading simplifications...

... for instance the text arguably implies, at least, that Frodo destroyed the Ring by himself, which is obviously a purposed simplification of the account. And we know, or can easily enough say I think, that the truth of the more detailed story was not going to change... in other words, we do not here have an instance of Tolkien merely changing his mind.

On the other hand, Of The Rings of Power states that the Noldor left Middle-earth before the "last ship" sailed, while the Note On The Shire Records (published by JRRT himself) states that some High Elves remained in Imladris after Elrond sailed. High Elves usually refers to the Noldor!

Purposed contradiction? Or Tolkien didn't get around to revising this in OTROP?

Another "last ship" reference in Appendix A seemingly has a Hobbit author (due to the inclusion of "we" came to the Shire in one part), and basically states that some say Cirdan still dwells in the Grey Havens until the Last Ship sails.

When was this written from an internal prespective -- that is, not when did Tolkien write it, but when did some Hobbit write it? Before Frodo and Elrond sailed... after Frodo and Elrond sailed?

I don't know (yet... is it possible to figure out?)

There might be more references too. I can't recall at the moment.

[Edited on 04/26/2015 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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on: April 26, 2015 04:41
Thank you Elthir. I knew I could rely on you to look farther and deeper. Tolkien likes to trick us into making assumptions, much as advertisers do. Perhaps he did this in his lectures at Oxford, challenging students to explore the origins of words … and of their thinking. We forget, as we read, that Tolkien writes from imagined sources, many and varied, so statements are the memories and assumptions of hobbits, elves, Gondorian archivists, Numenoreans etc. No wonder they are inconsistent.

So 'last' does not necessarily mean 'final' any more than 'last night' means the end of the world. The 'last bus' is usually the one we just miss coming out of the pub. It's not just who is writing either, but when ... how long after the event ... so if Sam comes home and next day writes of Frodo leaving on the last ship, he means the 'most recent'. Written years later it would have meant something else entirely.
Elthir
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on: April 26, 2015 10:46
Thanks Cirdaneth, and good points about "last"!

My take on "last", if and when it refers to Bilbo's ship that is, is that it's "poetically representative" (to invent a phrase!) based on importance and notability...

... the Istari mission completed, the Three having lost their power, the Ringbearers and "major" characters now leave Middle-earth: Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, many Noldor...

... it essentially represents the end of the Third Age and the ultimate change to the more mundane world of Men.

So in a meaningful sense this White Ship can be called the "last ship" if surely not technically so. Of course if one looks closer at this from a technical standpoint, even arguably "major" characters have not yet sailed (Sam, Legolas, Celeborn), and plenty of Elves I would say, including some High Elves.

But poetic license doesn't care about "technicalities", nor should it

Of course, again that is all based on the connection drawn in Of The Rings Of Power.

Cirdan says...

Of The Rings Of Power "But as for me, my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee."

Then the connection is made in the next paragraph: white was that ship (and so on), and Elrond sailed on it, after the Noldor had departed.

And in Appendix B....

Appendix B "But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."

Similar but different!


Interestingly, so far I can't find a reference to the "last ship" in Hammond and Scull's amazing Guide to The Lord of the Rings, outside of a reference to the poem published in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

But in their general Reader's Guide to Tolkien (a different guide) however, in reference to the poem Bilbo's Last Song, they write: "... also in poster form but with an illustration by Pauline Baynes of Sam, Merry, and Pippin watching the Last Ship sail into the West."

I note they here write Last Ship, not last ship, the former occuring in the Appendix A quote.

[Edited on 04/27/2015 by Elthir]
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