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Nordor
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Post Gandalf's Ring & Sauruman
on: November 12, 2015 12:18
Was Sauruman aware that Gandalf had a Ring of Power? If so, when he held him captive, why didn't he take it? Sauruman very much wanted one. Did any of the rings Sauruman made for himself have any power or were they just for his vanity?
tarcolan
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on: November 12, 2015 04:40
Good question Nordor. In 'Unfinished Tales' Part Four, Chapter 2 'The Istari' we are told that Saruman became aware that Gandalf had Narya, and begrudged it. In earlier versions of the story Saruman had one of the Great Rings (HoME VII). I can't find any explanation of why Saruman did not take Narya from Gandalf. There is no information at all about the ring that Saruman is wearing in LOTR and it is likely a leftover from the earlier draft. It could be assumed that Saruman was taunting Gandalf. If his ring did have any power it wasn't of much use to him.
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Gandolorin
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on: November 12, 2015 05:59
I suspect that this is one of the loose ends that can only be rationalized in retrospect. My rationalization is as follows:

Besides Saruman having no real use for anything but the One Ring, by the time he had captured Gandalf not one of the three Great Elven Rings would have been of any use to him. They were not made for the kind of power he lusted for. Perhaps one could even speculate that he knew that had he tried to take Narya from Gandalf, he would have suffered the same distress that Maedhros and Maglor suffered when they stole the two remaining Silmarils after the Great Battle. The Silmarils burnt their hands, making it clear to them that their destructive claim to them had become void, their insane oath taken in Valinor having become futile. And Saruman obviously believed it to be impossible for Gandalf to escape from the pinnacle of Orthanc, so Narya was in safe keeping, as he believed - wrongly.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: November 12, 2015 03:59
I wonder if Saruman was able to see Gandalf's ring.
Wasn't Galadriel's ring invisible to Sam and only Frodo could see it. Could it be that the only reason Frodo saw Nenya was because he had the One ring


[Edited on 11/13/2015 by Lord_Sauron]
tarcolan
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on: November 13, 2015 05:03
Saruman probably would have no use for Narya but I don't think that would have stopped him taking it, just to possess it. In HoME, Narya is only mentioned in book IX. The rings were named very late on, not sure when first mention of Gandalf having a ring was, probably also late in the writing and too late to change any other text.

I think it's more that Frodo noticed Nenya as being a ring of power L_S. I don't think it was invisible, Sam just wasn't looking. I'm sure Tolkien would have mentioned it... or maybe not.
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Gandolorin
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on: November 14, 2015 12:19
That's what I meant with loose ends above. But the whole speculation pales before Sauron's uncanonical capture of Gandalf in Dol Guldur in the movie Hobbit. Sauron WAS looking for all others of the Great Rings, haven taken the last surviving GR he had given the Dwarves from Thrór (some Dwarven Rings being supposed to have been destroyed by dragon-fire). To get a hold of one of the Three Great Elven Rings, in whose making he had no part and which he had never touched, would have been a major coup for him.

Is there any mention of Gandalf's having Narya anywhere in PJ's movies? I only recall a scene, probably in the prologue to FoTR, showing Elrond (or Gil-galad, who later gave it to Elrond?), Galadriel and Cirdan each wearing one of The Three. But I don't remember Nenya playing a role in the movie scene about Galadriel's mirror.

And Last, JRRT had given thought to making Nenya the post powerful of The Three, supplanting Vilya, all part of his ever-changing concept of Galadriel.

[Edited on 11/14/2015 by Gandolorin]
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tarcolan
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on: November 14, 2015 02:27
This is the book forum Gandolorin.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: November 14, 2015 03:10
Gandolorin said:Is there any mention of Gandalf's having Narya anywhere in PJ's movies?


To answer your question Gandolorin I have seen a scene on youtube from the battle of the five armies extended edition and Narya will be mentioned.
Elthir
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on: November 14, 2015 06:38
I'm with Tarcolan about the Three and invisibility.

In A Shadow of the Past Gandalf seems to say that all the Great Rings can turn their wearers invisible, but in this context, since Frodo's ring obviously does turn him invisible, I think it's easy enough to imagine that Gandalf simply does not wish to digress about the Three being exceptions here.

Gandalf doesn't need to tell Frodo about exceptions to get his point across about the perils of fading.

And in my opinion Sam saw the light of Nenya on Galadriel's finger (the "star" that he says he saw through her fingers) but as he had already seen the images in the mirror, I think he was distressed and wasn't paying enough attention here.

Frodo saw a ring, yes, but hey, can't Elves wear joolery?

But Frodo "saw" that it was one of the Three.

In a letter Tolkien notes that invisibility was one of the traits more directly derived from Sauron (in his good guy guise in Eregion), and that the Three did not confer invisibility.

And Celebrimbor made the Three without Sauron, and why make the rings themselves need to be able to vanish if they do not confer invisibility? Plus, at least when Celebrimbor made the Three he didn't yet know of Sauron's trickery in any case.

That said, that doesn't mean the bearers of the Three always wore their rings openly. I think it might depend on who is about, but I believe Frodo had begun to perceive things beyond his normal "sight", so to speak.

Anyway, just my opinions.

[Edited on 11/14/2015 by Elthir]
Gandolorin
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on: November 15, 2015 02:31
tarcolan said:This is the book forum Gandolorin.

Image errrrr, yes ...

Image But at least in my last line-and-a-half I skidded back on topic ...

Image It's just that I can get carried away flying of on niggling tangents; occasionally, I forget where the fly-off point is that I should return to after the excursion ... Image
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tarcolan
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on: November 15, 2015 09:31
BTW could you check your inbox please Gandolorin.
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