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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Chapter Quote ;QS 3
on: April 04, 2016 06:41
A long detailed quote;
Then befell the first sundering of the Elves. For the kindred of Ingwë, and the most part of the kindreds of Finwë and Elwë, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Oromë; and these were known ever after as the Eldar, by the name that Oromë gave to the Elves in the beginning, in their own tongue. But many refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of Middle-earth to the rumour of the Trees; and these are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past.
The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the east; and they were arrayed in three hosts. The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The Vanyar were his people; they are the Fair Elves, the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few among Men have spoken with them.
Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom, the people of Finwë. They are the Deep Elves, the friends of Aulë; and they are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old.
The greatest host came last, and they are named the Teleri, for they tarried on the road, and were not wholly of a mind to pass from the dusk to the light of Valinor. In water they had great delight, and those that came at last to the western shores were enamoured of the sea. The Sea-elves therefore they became in the land of Aman, the Falmari, for they made music beside the breaking waves. Two lords they had, for their numbers were great: Elwë Singollo (which signifies Greymantle) and Olwë his brother.
These were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light. But others of the Eldar there were who set out indeed upon the westward march, but became lost upon the long road, or turned aside, or lingered on the shores of Middle-earth; and these were for the most part of the kindred of the Teleri, as is told hereafter. They dwelt by the sea or wandered in the woods and mountains of the world, yet their hearts were turned towards the West. Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Úmanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Úmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon.


Its time for new readers to take notes in able to keep track of the different groups of Elves!
I've underlined the names for the various branches of the Elven lineage

Does this seem a bit difficult to keep organized?


[Edited on 04/04/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Ringilswrath
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on: April 05, 2016 12:16
It can be a bit cumbersome at first trying to keep track of all the different kindred of Elves. For a new reader, it might even be overwhelming. I'm not sure what to suggest to make it easier for them, although having the words underlined above helps. In the past, I've tried to imagine the different groups moving around on the map, giving me a another way of keeping them separate.
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BelleBayard
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on: April 05, 2016 10:17
I keep remembering that Galadriel was supposed to have been of the Vanyar line and Elrond was Noldor (as was his brother, who chose the path of his father and became the progenitor of Numenoreans). I also remember that some of the Avari settled in Mirkwood. Truly, by the time LoTR occurs there are not very many Elves left in Arda. Find it kind of interesting that the Noldor sort of associated with the children of Aule, but then they were also the great Elven craftsmen, like Celebrimbor, who also delighted in working with metals.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: April 05, 2016 11:32
I used to consider the Elf lineage terms to be very complicated; until I looked at my own. I'm Canadian, but my ancestors came from Ireland, so that would make me Irish-Canadian. Before that I'm descended from English that migrated to Ireland and settled there in the 17th Century, making me Anglo-Irish as they intermarried with the Irish. Before that My ancestors would be Anglo-Saxon, and Celtic with a good chance of some Norse mingling with the Irish Celts.

Tolkien's elf lineages are only complicated because they are unfamiliar.
BelleBayard
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on: April 06, 2016 10:09
Good point, PBHF. I just had DNA testing done through National Geographic and it was mightily interesting. I had some of what I expected - English Scottish with a fair amount of Scandinavian (read Norse - my clan comes from Northern Scotland - Gunn - and had a heavy dose of Viking methinks), but also some other influences from my father's side - Prussian/Serbian - perhaps a touch of Turk given they overran Serbia for a long time. So yes, that makes sense with the Elves. I do believe that Thranduil had some Vanyar blood, if he was not indeed Vanyar himself (similar to Galadriel), but then married into the Avari of the Great Forest (a.k.a. Mirkwood).
Ringilswrath
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on: April 06, 2016 12:16
I like the idea of equating the different lineages of elves to nationalities. Makes the idea of following the different kindred easier to follow.

I had always thought Thranduil was Teleri for some reason, although I can't think of a source for that thought so I might be thinking of somebody else. I know Galadriel's grandmother was Vanyar, I think in one reference it was the sister of Ingwe, but cannot remember if Finarfin had married a Noldor or a Vanyar.
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"Are you sure about that? It might just be a tie!" ~ Duo Maxwell, MS Gundam Wing

Gandolorin
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on: April 09, 2016 02:20
I would agree with Tom Shippey that keeping track of who was related to whom in what way is anything but trivial in understanding the mess that happened in Beleriand before it was drowned in the attack on Morgoth brought abut by Eärendil's mission to Aman at the end of the First Age.

Just a short genealogy of the non - Fëanorian Noldor:
Indis, the second wife of Finwë High-King of the Noldor after Fëanor's mother died (exhausted by giving birth to him) was of the Vanyar, "closely related to Ingwë". So Fingolfin and Finarfin are half Vanyar and half Noldor (in order of seniority!). Finarfin then mixed things up even more by marrying a wife of the Teleri royal house. Fingolfin's descent goes Turgon => Idril (wife of the Edain Tuor) => Eärendil => Elrond and Elros etc. Finarfin's descent goes through Galadriel. They meet in Aragorn II Estel and Arwen Undómiel, but that is three ages and 7000 years in the future of what we are discussing.
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Neenime
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on: April 11, 2016 03:52
Thanks for this PBHF. I think it will help. I guess we can go back to this page for a reference when needed.

Keeping track is part of what made reading the Sil such a chore in the past. I have had thoughts of creating a chart, to simplify all the wording into some key concepts and groups. So far, though I've just underlined in my copy of the Silmarillion.

These days, I take the easy way, using Encyclopedia of Arda. The iPhone has a great app that doesn't cost much. For each entry there are tabs that can show, as appropriate, map, genealogy or image. So, for quick reference, I go to the phone.

By the way, the online Encyclopedia of Arda has over 30 "divisions" of Elves listed. Yikes !!!!

“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Gandolorin
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on: April 12, 2016 05:25
I now have genealogical table of the Eldar in my copy of J.E.A. Tyler's "The Complete Tolkien Companion", probably ©2002, under the entry "Lines of Descent." Lists all participants in the Silmarillion:

Noldor
1) Finwë + Miríel Serindë (of the Noldor) => Fëanor
2) Finwë + Indis (of the Vanyar) => Fingolfin, Finarfin

Teleri
Elwë + Melian (of the Maiar!) => Lúthien (wife of Beren => Dior Eluchil => Elwing, wife of Eärendil)
Olwë + ? => Eärwen (wife of Finarfin)
Elmo (?) => ancestor of Celeborn (husband of Galadriel) (Elmo is very late and doubtful writing)

Fëanor + Nerdanel (of the Noldor) => Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amrod, Amras
of these, only
Curufin + ? => Celebrimbor, only Fëanorian to survive into the SA, and last of them; the Ring-smith.

Fingolfin + Anairë (of the Noldor) => Fingon, Turgon, Ar-Feiniel (wife of Eöl, mother of Maeglin)
Fingon + ? => Gil-galad, fell at to the end of the SA while defeating Sauron together with Elendil
Turgon + Elenwë (of the Noldor) => Idril Celebrindal (wife of Tuor => Eärendil, husband of Elwing => Elrond, Elros)

Finarfin + Eärwen (of the Teleri) => Finrod Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor, Galadriel
Orodreth + ? => Finduilas (loved Turin Turambar, died shortly after the sack of Nargothrond)
Galadriel + Celeborn => Celebrían (wife of Elrond)
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Neenime
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on: April 13, 2016 11:53
Thanks for this Gandolorin. That's a good summary. Actually, I may have that book also. Will need to look through my collection.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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